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Thread: Why do casinos offer 6:5 Blackjack? Why do casinos have 7/5 Bonus Video poker?

  1. #1
    What happened that made casinos change the payoffs on their games? What made them tighten their slots? Lower the paytables on video poker? Change the rules and the payoffs at blackjack?

    Today, it is very common to find 6:5 blackjack where 3:2 blackjack used to be played. And today there are casinos that offer 7/5 Bonus video poker instead of the higher paying 8/5 video poker? Why?

    I ask why because the casinos still made money with 3:2 blackjack and the casinos still made money with 8/5 Bonus video poker. Is it only greed? Is it because they overbuilt and now have too much debt to service? Is it because they have added so many shows and pools and spas and luxury rooms that they need more profits from the casino to subsidize the cost of the hotel and resort amenities?

  2. #2
    I think all the reasons you mention are valid. The casino business is about revenue. And one of the most important reasons is (at least I believe) tourists don't know all that much about gambling, payout schedules, etc. They all expect losing and hope for a 1 in a 50 million chance to win big. The average tourist doesn't know more than a slotmachine being loose or tight. They won't really notice the difference between tight and tighter...

  3. #3
    I think gamblers (consumers) are smarter than that. You don't have to be a professional gambler anymore to read on the Internet about which casino has "better games" and for this reason I think soon (it might take a few years) that the casinos that do have lesser games will suffer.

    Here in Southern California, the Indian casinos are all very aggressive with their cashback and promo offers including free play, and the pay tables on VP are in some places better than what you will find in Vegas. Harrah's Rincon, for example, has many full pay video poker machines. You can't find 8/5 Bonus or 9/6 double double bonus at Caesars Palace in Vegas but you can find it at Harrah's Rincon in San Diego. If you want to play VP, Southern Californians get a better game in their own back yard.

  4. #4
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    I think gamblers (consumers) are smarter than that. You don't have to be a professional gambler anymore to read on the Internet about which casino has "better games" and for this reason I think soon (it might take a few years) that the casinos that do have lesser games will suffer.
    I think you're giving consumers way more credit than they deserve. I also think you're far more interested in pay tables than the average tourist will ever be. I haven't ever looked at paytables when I sat down at a machine because in my book, it's all about luck. I've never seen anybody close to me in a casino looking at paytables. I've never had a paytable discussion with anybody at a casino. I think VP-players look into paytables more than people who play a variety of slots. The average tourists who spends a thousand dollars on gambling during a trip (at slotmachines) as being part of their vacation and the "Vegas experience" don't care about paytables at all. Have you ever looked at the enormous amount of slots in Vegas casinos? Are all these people playing these slots because of the great paytables or are they playing them because a screen above the machine is telling them they have a shot at winning 10 million?

  5. #5
    While the "average tourist" is not that aware, I think there are far more knowledgeable players than there used to be. In addition, these players are more likely to be playing more hands which raises the "per hand" knowledge even more.

  6. #6
    I think as Las Vegas became more corporate, and as the gambling population grew, casinos began testing the limits of what the consuming population would tolerate. Alienating chunks of the gambling public became less of a concern as the sheer bulk of the gambling demographic grew. Corporates thought they would detect resistance well in advance of doing any real damage to themselves.

    While there may be more total knowledgeable players, I really don't believe the percent of players who are "knowledgeable" has grown at all. When you consider all forms of gambling, I actually think the "average" casino-goer is less knowledgeable than his counterpart 30 years ago. And 95% of the "specialists," be they vp players or sports bettors, still lose. So, if they lose, are they any more "knowledgeable" in a practical sense than their equivalents 30 years ago? I'd say no -- expertise that results in losing is just stupidity by a fancier name.

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by Vegas_lover View Post
    I think you're giving consumers way more credit than they deserve. I also think you're far more interested in pay tables than the average tourist will ever be. I haven't ever looked at paytables when I sat down at a machine because in my book, it's all about luck. I've never seen anybody close to me in a casino looking at paytables. I've never had a paytable discussion with anybody at a casino. I think VP-players look into paytables more than people who play a variety of slots. The average tourists who spends a thousand dollars on gambling during a trip (at slotmachines) as being part of their vacation and the "Vegas experience" don't care about paytables at all. Have you ever looked at the enormous amount of slots in Vegas casinos? Are all these people playing these slots because of the great paytables or are they playing them because a screen above the machine is telling them they have a shot at winning 10 million?
    OMG, where to begin....

    It's clear that you don't know anything at all about "pay tables" are in regard to Video Poker because they are NOT the same as the payout screens for regular slots. The decision to play a given VP machine is indeed dependent upon its pay table which is why knowledgeable VP players look at them, as the pay table will indicate the long term payout % for that machine. If you, or anyone, does not look at the pay table for a VP machine before sitting down to play, you are foolish and ignorant.

    As far as regular slot machines go, you cannot tell by looking at anything at all on the machine's exterior what the long term payout % is for that machine, which is why no one is "looking at pay tables", because "pay tables" on these machines don't exist.

    You are incorrectly comparing apples to oranges with your observation.

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    What happened that made casinos change the payoffs on their games? What made them tighten their slots? Lower the paytables on video poker? Change the rules and the payoffs at blackjack?

    Today, it is very common to find 6:5 blackjack where 3:2 blackjack used to be played. And today there are casinos that offer 7/5 Bonus video poker instead of the higher paying 8/5 video poker? Why?

    I ask why because the casinos still made money with 3:2 blackjack and the casinos still made money with 8/5 Bonus video poker. Is it only greed? Is it because they overbuilt and now have too much debt to service? Is it because they have added so many shows and pools and spas and luxury rooms that they need more profits from the casino to subsidize the cost of the hotel and resort amenities?
    Casino managers know that most gamblers don't know and don't care about 3:2 vs 6:5, and 7/5 vs 8/5, so it's a prudent move by them. For those that do know the difference, the managers are banking (no pun intended) on those tourists still coming to Vegas because it's Vegas. Unless you're willing to go off the Strip (and millions of visitors are not), there's no need to offer a better gambling environment. The Strip is the attraction, so why change?

    The major moves away from the 3:2 blackjack and from full pay VP coincided with the growth of the internet. As the internet information highway exploded into the hands of millions of gamblers, this load of information contained all the "how-to" lessons on card counting prompting retaliatory measures by casinos to take the advantage back: 6:5, multiple decks, continuous shuffle, etc.

    The introduction of VP software to teach us and allow us to practice advantage play has increased the number of VP players who are just enough smarter, by comparison, to bring some consternation into the minds of casino management when it was time to decide which pay tables to put out onto the floor.

    I think that casino managers overreacted because few players actually became THAT good to pose a real threat to their bottom lines. There are still many, many who think they're "good" and who think they will "beat the casino" and we all know this won't ever happen. With the financial difficulties the casinos are in, the present gaming situation will never change.

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by Vegas Vic View Post
    OMG, where to begin....

    It's clear that you don't know anything at all about "pay tables" are in regard to Video Poker because they are NOT the same as the payout screens for regular slots. The decision to play a given VP machine is indeed dependent upon its pay table which is why knowledgeable VP players look at them, as the pay table will indicate the long term payout % for that machine. If you, or anyone, does not look at the pay table for a VP machine before sitting down to play, you are foolish and ignorant.


    As far as regular slot machines go, you cannot tell by looking at anything at all on the machine's exterior what the long term payout % is for that machine, which is why no one is "looking at pay tables", because "pay tables" on these machines don't exist.

    You are incorrectly comparing apples to oranges with your observation.
    Vic,

    I think you misread my post and didn't get what I was trying to say. I'll try to clarify this. I'm not a VP player and I know VP-players look at paytables, especially advantage players do. Because to play the game as well as possible you have to take these paytables into account. But there are still a lot of tourists that play video poker as well because they "know" how to play poker. Most of those tourists will probably not be looking at those paytables very well.You are mostly a VP-player right? Not everybody in a casino playing a machine is VP-player or wants to be an advantage player. Although I like live poker a lot, personally I think VP is boring. It's a good thing that not everybody is into the same games, because there would never be a chance to sit down at your favourite game, there would always be a 100 people waiting in line in front of you.

    As far as regular slots go that just shows my statement is correct about most people not caring too much about paytables. I know the machines do not show paytables. But if the majority of the people coming to casinos was so interested in paytables, wouldn't you think a lot of them would be looking for them on the machines? I also have serious doubts that the average Vegas casino customer will call the casino before arriving to ask about payout percentages. And still you see 10.000's of people playing slots in Vegas casinos every day. All these people know the casino has the edge, they only hope they will win. They are recreational gamblers.

    Try not to look at this discussion from a VP-angle. You, Alan and Arci for example are VP-players. You're all very much looking into paytables, optimal play and ER. If all the VP-players (advantage players) would be put in a room completely filled with casino slotmachine players you would be a very small minority. I hope this makes sense...

  10. #10
    While there are no "pay tables" for slots, some casinos do put up signs on their "better paying slots," and some slots do have programs that can allow for 99% payback, etc., similiar to video poker payoffs.

    And there are several magazines and websites which now publish the hold (or payback) of various denomination slots in various jurisdictions.

    The point of all this is that you can play slots with an effort to find the better paying slot games. And some of those slots can have a better return for players than video poker games.

  11. #11
    Hey Alan,

    Do you have directions where I can find that info. I would appreciate it a lot. I think the "general public" does not know about that info and where to find it.

  12. #12
    Here's one report I found on the Internet from Nevada regulators:

    http://gaming.nv.gov/documents/pdf/1g_10sep.pdf

    For the magazines: Casino Player and Strictly Slots www.casinoplayer.com

    Also try the Las Vegas Review Journal archives www.lvrj.com

  13. #13
    Payback % on regular slots probably means very little (or nothing at all) to tourists. If it did, there would be no play at all on the Strip. Despite me telling my wife how low the return is on all those penny slots she loves, she won't stop playing them because to her "it's all about the entertainment of playing". She says she leaves "the winning" to me.

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    While there are no "pay tables" for slots, some casinos do put up signs on their "better paying slots," and some slots do have programs that can allow for 99% payback, etc., similiar to video poker payoffs.

    And there are several magazines and websites which now publish the hold (or payback) of various denomination slots in various jurisdictions.

    The point of all this is that you can play slots with an effort to find the better paying slot games. And some of those slots can have a better return for players than video poker games.
    All of this signage in and around the casino is purely a marketing ploy. "loose slots" is extremely generic and is relative, so to me, it means nothing. Now, if there is a bank of machines that carry signage that reads "up to 99% payback", then there must be at least one machine in that group which will pay what is being advertised. The problem is locating that machine since there's no guarantee that all of the machines fit that payback.

    In a broader sense, it is true that regions of casinos will carry machines with an overall higher return (as in Boulder Hwy vs Strip), but everyone reading these monthly reports (as I do) needs to understand that their short term visit may not yield the same results as the magazine indicates.

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by Vegas_lover View Post
    Vic,

    I think you misread my post and didn't get what I was trying to say. I'll try to clarify this. I'm not a VP player and I know VP-players look at paytables, especially advantage players do. Because to play the game as well as possible you have to take these paytables into account. But there are still a lot of tourists that play video poker as well because they "know" how to play poker. Most of those tourists will probably not be looking at those paytables very well.You are mostly a VP-player right? Not everybody in a casino playing a machine is VP-player or wants to be an advantage player. Although I like live poker a lot, personally I think VP is boring. It's a good thing that not everybody is into the same games, because there would never be a chance to sit down at your favourite game, there would always be a 100 people waiting in line in front of you.

    As far as regular slots go that just shows my statement is correct about most people not caring too much about paytables. I know the machines do not show paytables. But if the majority of the people coming to casinos was so interested in paytables, wouldn't you think a lot of them would be looking for them on the machines? I also have serious doubts that the average Vegas casino customer will call the casino before arriving to ask about payout percentages. And still you see 10.000's of people playing slots in Vegas casinos every day. All these people know the casino has the edge, they only hope they will win. They are recreational gamblers.

    Try not to look at this discussion from a VP-angle. You, Alan and Arci for example are VP-players. You're all very much looking into paytables, optimal play and ER. If all the VP-players (advantage players) would be put in a room completely filled with casino slotmachine players you would be a very small minority. I hope this makes sense...
    No misunderstanding at all. You clearly were using the term "pay table" to indicate that it was something that a tourist was ignoring when playing regular slots and that this same "pay table" was something you never personally discussed in a casino. I merely pointed out to you that your nomenclature was wrong. Your effort to apply the concept of "pay table" to regular slots was misleading because there is no such thing.

  16. #16
    Originally Posted by Vegas Vic View Post
    No misunderstanding at all. You clearly were using the term "pay table" to indicate that it was something that a tourist was ignoring when playing regular slots and that this same "pay table" was something you never personally discussed in a casino. I merely pointed out to you that your nomenclature was wrong. Your effort to apply the concept of "pay table" to regular slots was misleading because there is no such thing.
    Vic,

    Did it ever occur to you that I am European and that I could actually mix up some terms sometimes because English isn't my first language? There's a fine line between trying to discuss a topic and try to see eachothers point of view or on the other hand the need to feel right. I'll give you the honour of being right and I'm done with the subject.

    @ Alan,
    Will you please be so kind to revoke my account on this forum. I do not wish to be part of it anymore. I know, I can just stop posting and I will. The posts I've made until now can stay online, but after this I want you to block this account. Please inform me about this through pm.
    Last edited by Vegas_lover; 08-01-2011 at 01:04 PM.

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