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Thread: Dancer Revisited

  1. #1
    I've read just about everything Bob Dancer has written over the years. I have definitely learned a lot from his columns, with the emphasis on the past tense, as nothing much he has written in the last four or five years has been terribly useful. That's not his fault -- vp is now pretty much a wasteland, and Dancer's not really an expert at other forms of gambling. This week's column at the LVA made me step back and ask the question I've asked before, namely:

    "Has Bob Dancer helped players over the last five years, or contributed to casinos' bottom lines?"

    I think it's the latter.

    Now some might take me to task for asking a question that may be a false dichotomy. In other words, can one help players and contribute to casinos' bottom lines at the same time? I would argue that no, one cannot. One is either helping players, as a group, keep their money or one can help casinos take their money.

    The most commonly used argument against my stance is that if players get more recreational time per dollar lost, then Dancer is indeed helping them, even if they lose more money. I have a tough time with that, as human life spans are limited, and pounding on video poker machines isn't likely to be viewed as terribly productive or healthy from any perspective.

    There is also the point that Dancer's coaching, while helpful 20 years ago when vp could be beaten, is a "gateway drug" that leads to more machine time and eventually, more money spent.

    I throw this out there for discussion.
    Last edited by redietz; 05-13-2015 at 12:15 PM.

  2. #2
    Given current conditions shouldn't Dancer be saying "don't play"?

  3. #3
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Given current conditions shouldn't Dancer be saying "don't play"?
    I don't know about that.....


    But I agree, I think BD supports the casinos more than the players.

  4. #4
    Especially his home casino of "Sweat Point."

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by RS__ View Post
    I don't know about that.....


    But I agree, I think BD supports the casinos more than the players.
    Let's not forget he is paid by the casinos for seminars and for the rights to his name and likeness on VP machines.

  6. #6
    On average he helps the casinos because there are not enough players willing to do all the work necessary to become successful. Maybe one in ten will be successful and even then they may drag along spouses and friends that end up leading to more casinos profits. For those of us who have done the work, this is not really a bad thing.

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Let's not forget he is paid by the casinos for seminars and for the rights to his name and likeness on VP machines.
    Which part of my post are you responding to? The "i don't know about that [not playing VP because of currrent conditions]"? Or the part where I say BD supports casinos > players?

    What's wrong with the current VP conditions? Do you think VP is not profitable right now? I'm sure it's not as good as it used to be, but, there are definitely gold mines out there as we speak.

  8. #8
    Jesus, RS, how old are you and do you live in the US? To say it's not as good as it used to be is like saying -- hell, I don't know. I was going to make some crack about Raquel Welch circa 1972 versus Raquel Welch now, but I looked up her photos, and she still looks pretty awesome, so scratch that analogy. Anyway, video poker was soooo much better in the 90's. And comps were the same as slot comps. Think about it -- slot comp rates for positive expectation games. It was just an entirely different environment. Anybody who played then is pretty much horrified now.

  9. #9
    I'm young.

    I wasn't around playing in the 90's or whenever these awesome opportunities were abound. But, that's not my point.

    My point is this -- there are still plenty of opportunities to make money playing VP. Lots of 2%+ edges can be found. And several 5%+ edges can be found. And I'm not talking about $10/hour stuff either. Some stuff (like 2% edges) can be $50/hour. Some of the 5%'ers are worth $500+/hour.

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by RS__ View Post
    I'm young.

    I wasn't around playing in the 90's or whenever these awesome opportunities were abound. But, that's not my point.

    My point is this -- there are still plenty of opportunities to make money playing VP. Lots of 2%+ edges can be found. And several 5%+ edges can be found. And I'm not talking about $10/hour stuff either. Some stuff (like 2% edges) can be $50/hour. Some of the 5%'ers are worth $500+/hour.
    And if you play like I do, the edges are many time well over 200%+!

  11. #11
    Red, that's the type of nonsense you see regularly on WoV. Too bad none of these "young experts" couldn't ever transfer their super knowledge to the Wizard. Would've saved him a lot of embarrassment.

    To answer the original question, yes, I believe Dancer is doing something good by training others in those group sessions, and while it most likely does not lead them to be winners, their money may last longer as does their entertainment. I myself learned optimal play when his first trainer from Dean Zamzow was released. It's also the program I used to develop special plays that deviate from expert strategy.

    Does Dancer work for and benefit casinos? Of course he does--that's his main source of income to make his living. He also charges $250/hour for private training, which is obviously a rip-off and is advertised only as a means of shamelessly promoting himself. No one "takes advantage" of such a thing. So how does he support the big play he regularly boasts about, and how did he survive that totally despicable divorce from Shirley who took him to the most efficient cleaners in town? The $2million gift from his dad upon his passing away, and it won't last forever because he does not win. It seems constantly writing and talking about places like "Sweat Point" over the years is coming back to bite him. For a very long time he's said how much he beats those places for at the machines, in tournaments, and from slot club freebies. So in this day of belt-tightening, how then is he allowed to continue raping these local casinos over & over again--and always on invites? Similarly, on his GWAE show, four times I've called in and written in questions about this subject and it has always remained unanswered. Guess why.

    Arguing whether there are "playable" vp games out there today is ticky-tack stuff and neither here nor there. I've always played BP, SDBP, TBP+, DDBP, & SDBP on whatever pay tables, because they were all very very "playable" when you utilize a structured strategy, discipline, bankroll, and ignore greed. In fact, since 2015 began, I have not had a losing session, I've had a dollar and a $2 royal, and I'm already starting to be concerned about my AGI on next year's tax return. But the real point here is, RS, it's never too late to learn that the bank doesn't take phantom bucks for deposits (even the "$500/hr." types ) as your forum host over there discovered when he put out a plea for fast cash. Your story on "edges" borders on the type of nonsense mickeycrimm told when he was drunk. You see, the only thing that matters about making a bet is whether you win or lose. But you'll learn, and you'll most probably do what several dozen other members on that "AP" forum have already done since my interview with Shack: come to me for training, and it won't cost you one single dime. Now if you're young, go out and do something instead of spending all your time being hooked on Internet forums. You'll regret these wasted hours in due time.
    Last edited by Rob.Singer; 05-13-2015 at 06:43 PM.

  12. #12
    It's safe to say that no gaming author or "expert" helps players because the casinos have the advantage over all of them. To single out Bob is disingenuous. Why not ask the same thing of Frank Scoblete and his dice control bleating? If you indeed were reading Bob over the years, he makes no secret of how much of a battle it is to win in a casino. (http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/bob_dancer/2015/0113.cfm).

    Granted, many of his columns are too deep in VP babble for the typical player to comprehend but that's not his fault. If current columns are not useful, then perhaps you've reached your limit for understanding and utilizing his VP-speak. I know that much of what he says now is beyond my willingness to delve into as I'm content to be a good recreational player and have no aspirations to operate at Dancer level.

    Dancer's coaching is a gateway drug to spending more money?? Let's be honest. EVERYTHING on the Strip is a gateway drug to spending more money: signage, flashing lights, the clubs, the free flowing alcohol, the sounds and smells of the casinos, the celebrity chefs...on and on and on.

    I would offer this: the only person I've read over the past few years who makes any contention that his readers will make money in casinos is our resident snake oil salesman, He-Who-Gets-Banned-And-Unbanned-Reguarly.

  13. #13
    I used Dancer's strategy and attended lectures to learn how to play video poker. There is no question that he has useful advice. Yes, I've been reading his current articles and they don't give the nuts and bolts of playing VP like they used to, but how many times can you write about deuces wild strategy?

    Yes he helps players, and yes the casinos (some at least) believe his lessons/lectures can bring in new customers. Since it is unlikely you will find any positive expectation paytables today (with rare exception) the casinos are happy to have him teach and then have the players come in to play the -EV machines.

    Even more than ten years ago (I can't remember the exact time now) when I attended one of Dancer's lectures at a casino in North Las Vegas his "endorsed machines" with his picture above the glass were only 9/6 Jacks -- and yes the casino still has an edge on that.

    Curiously he doesn't talk about reduced paytables nor tell anyone to stop playing the poor paytables. I don't know if it's an oversight or not. But he's like real estate agents. Have you ever met a real estate agent who told you NOT to buy because prices are going lower? Have you ever met a real estate agent who told you not to sell now because prices are going higher?

  14. #14
    You don't need to attend any seminars, be trained or any other nonsense. Just learn the perfect strategy for whatever game you like to play whether it be +EV or -EV. Anyone paying anyone to learn this needs their heads examined. Plenty of places to plug in the paytables online and get optimal playing strategy.

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    You don't need to attend any seminars, be trained or any other nonsense. Just learn the perfect strategy for whatever game you like to play whether it be +EV or -EV. Anyone paying anyone to learn this needs their heads examined. Plenty of places to plug in the paytables online and get optimal playing strategy.
    When I learned to play video poker that stuff wasn't on the Internet. As a matter of fact, Al Gore hadn't invented it yet.

  16. #16
    BTW, vp is not my bread and butter. Much, MUCH more money on table games. We just need to shut Mr. Jacobson up.

  17. #17
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    When I learned to play video poker that stuff wasn't on the Internet. As a matter of fact, Al Gore hadn't invented it yet.
    Quite understandable.

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