Rumor: Rincon to remove last of 8/5 Bonus, full pay games

[Alan Mendelson]

There is a rumor -- and at this point only a rumor -- that Rincon will soon remove the last of the 8/5 Bonus and 8/5 Aces and Faces video poker games.

As we all know, most of those games at denominations under $5 per coin were removed a few months ago. But a few remain -- and those machines have been identified and will be changed soon.

What has not been mentioned is if the remaining full pay 8/5 Bonus and 8.5 Aces and Faces games at the $5/coin level in the high limit room will also be removed.

[redietz]

If they do that, Alan, I would stick to craps. Craps, at least, is a social game with value beyond the pure math of it. Having played since the inception of video poker, I find it insulting that casinos think I'd sit down and spend more than a couple of hours or $100 on bad video poker.

[Alan Mendelson]

Craps has a lower return than full pay video poker except when you factor in heavy odds betting. For flat bets at craps the best you can do is a house edge of 1.41% while in video poker it can be .80% on Bonus.

But that's only the best bet at craps-- the pass or don't pass. Start betting numbers and craps is much worse than any VP game with a bad pay table.

[redietz]

Machine gaming is 500+ events per hour. Craps is, what, 50-70?

Two completely different experiences. The fact they both fall under the rubric of "gambling" says nothing about them. If you had to give up one, which would it be?

[Alan Mendelson]

If I had to choose between video poker and craps -- I would choose video poker. Even in the years I did great playing video poker, I lost the profits and more playing craps.

[redietz]

You're not alone. Some great poker players, from different generations, have lost their asses at craps.

[Dan Druff]

I've been assuming that will happen before the end of 2015.

Rincon has made it very clear that they don't give a shit anymore about catering to the low EV, video poker grinder.

So if you limit yourself to good paytables and try to grind VP with a small expected loss, they don't want you or your variance, even if you play middle-high or high limits.

They seem to be pushing these customers away, and much prefer the clueless gambler, who just shows up to play and knows nothing (or doesn't care) about pay tables.

Basically, Alan, they are saying that people like you and I are more trouble than we're worth.

This is unfortunately a sign of the times regarding all forms of gambling.

In the old days, even as recently as the '90s, it was assumed that a casino had to offer high-return games in order to attract the business of the savvy gambler.

Then it became clear that most gamblers AREN'T savvy, and therefore the casinos had been wasting money by offering games too close to 0 EV.

It also became clear that low EV gamblers might actually COST them money, after comps and resources are figured in.

Little by little, casinos are shifting their business model to cater to the clueless, while slowly showing the savvy and semi-savvy gamblers out the door.

So it's not just enough to have an edge on you. They want an edge so big that you're highly unlikely to beat it, even if you get lucky.

[Alan Mendelson]

Rincon changed when they decided to build the new hotel tower and the events center. They used the casino to pay for them. Outside of a few shows a month the event center is unused. I'm not sure it will ever become a "convention hotel" or a wedding or Bar Mitzvah factory.

[redietz]

The addition I'd make to Dan's statement is that it's not just casinos catering to the non-savvy with new business models. As detailed in the book "Addiction By Design," it's that the casino models have addicted segments of the population with such effectiveness that the casinos can now reduce the payouts while being relatively certain that it won't cost them behaviorally hooked customers.

[Alan Mendelson]

Don't forget the lack of competition. There are only a few companies setting the standards for gaming and comps.

Dan has chosen to be part of Total Rewards so he will have to surrender to what they offer. If he really wanted 9/6 Jacks he could play at Casino Pauma which is about six minutes from Rincon but has no link to Total Rewards or any Vegas Casino.

[regnis]

Don't forget the lack of competition. There are only a few companies setting the standards for gaming and comps.

Dan has chosen to be part of Total Rewards so he will have to surrender to what they offer. If he really wanted 9/6 Jacks he could play at Casino Pauma which is about six minutes from Rincon but has no link to Total Rewards or any Vegas Casino.

That is a very good point Alan. I can't speak for others but I have almost completely given up on casinos from a time when I was a sought after player. I play enough casually to be barely diamond. I don't care about anything but the free rooms when I need them. I need the free room for business or when I am playing in a horse tournament in Vegas or jersey. Otherwise I havent been to either just for gambling in years.

But apparently not enough of us have stopped playing in casinos to force them to maintain good games and comps. Shame on us--can't blame the casinos.

[spojoey]

Alan...This morning at Rincon the VP machines in the no smoking area were changed to 6/5 bonus poker and aces faces

[Alan Mendelson]

thanks spojoey. If you can check the main video poker area between the doors and the high limit slots where there were still a few 8/5 bonus and Aces games from 25-cents to $2.

by the way, Pechanga has lower paying video poker games in its non smoking area.

[spojoey]

thanks spojoey. If you can check the main video poker area between the doors and the high limit slots where there were still a few 8/5 bonus and Aces games from 25-cents to $2.

by the way, Pechanga has lower paying video poker games in its non smoking area.

Those are still there Alan...Not sure for how long tho..lol....I counted 4 8/5 bonus
2 Aces faces 8/5

[Alan Mendelson]

The machine at Rincon that now occupies the spot where 3116 was is now 7/5 Bonus and so is the Game King on the other side, next to the aisle. A player emailed me. There is still 8/5 Aces and Faces in the high limit room at $5. And there is one Game King that he saw that has 8/5 up to $2, and starting at 25-cents.

[Dan Druff]

The machine at Rincon that now occupies the spot where 3116 was is now 7/5 Bonus and so is the Game King on the other side, next to the aisle. A player emailed me. There is still 8/5 Aces and Faces in the high limit room at $5. And there is one Game King that he saw that has 8/5 up to $2, and starting at 25-cents.

http://www.vpfree2.com/casino/harrahs-rincon

VPFREE2 claims there is a single 8-5 BP left (under $5), outside the high-limit room towards the east entrance.

So that's consistent with what this player told you.

[spojoey]

I left Rincon Weds am around 10am. I played nothing but vp for 3 days. i go there twice a month every month. When I left there were 4

8/5 bp and two of them included aces faces

[Dan Druff]

I left Rincon Weds am around 10am. I played nothing but vp for 3 days. i go there twice a month every month. When I left there were 4

8/5 bp and two of them included aces faces

What denomination?

[Alan Mendelson]

There used to be Game Kings with Aces and Faces that went up to $2 in one group of machines which I will call the 3116 group. There was also a machine that had 8/5 Bonus at 25cents and 50 cents and $1 and $5 but no $2. I don't know if that game was also cut to 7/5.

[spojoey]

What denomination?

25 cents to $2