Mlife

[Dan Druff]

They are probably told to ignore odds bets (as they have a 0 EV) when rating players for craps.

[Alan Mendelson]

I've written about the craps rating at Caesars and it's basically broken down into three tiers:

1. You get the lowest rating for the best bets including pass with odds and placing 6/8.

2. You get the next best rating if you bet the numbers across.

3. You get the highest rating for center table bets including horn, hops, hardways and field.

They have an euphemistic title for #1 -- they are called "experienced" players.

Caesars casinos include odds as part of your average bet.

[RoeIncarnate]

You call what dealers and pit bosses do a SERVICE? You do know, I trust, that their only purpose for being there is to keep the action going so the casino can take as much of your money as it can and as fast as possible.

And just what does it mean that these people "recognize" you because you tip them? If I were them and I saw you coming over to our table I'd let my colleagues know and put on a show for you so you'll give us your money for doing our jobs. Hint again: they don't care about you and they may not even like you. They just want you to lose so their jobs will stay safe.

Casinos can take our money in more ways than one if you allow them to. Unless, of course, you are a wise player.

So predictable RS.

Your argument could be applied to anyone in the service sector. They don't care if like the service (food, massage, etc), they only want your money. I often feel this way about waiters when I just order water (I hope you don't do exactly what restaurants want you to do and order highly marked up alcohol or soda ;-). Some are just greedy. But many people like their job on some level, and many good dealers are people oriented and like interacting with others.

Most dealers couldnt care less if the casino wins from you. It doesn't come out if there pocket. In fact winners are more likely to tip better. Everyone with a brain in a casino knows casinos have the edge and win over the long term.

I've people that were dealers in the past and they liked dealing and being around the game and the people. They didn't want to bankrupt people. Gambling is entertainment for most and therefore falls into the service and tipping category for me.

[RoeIncarnate]

Whodat let us know how and where you end up playing. I look for to trip report.

[Rob.Singer]

You are a very confused person, and as usual, non-stop feel-good justifications are the order of the day for gamblers.

Comparing dealers to waiters is a weak argument. Restaurant personnel want you to have the best time ever and they try their best to make it happen. Dealers are simpletons who have obviously successfully tricked you into believing they want you to win, and all because the casinos will "win in the long-term anyway". Give me and yourself a break. When you take their money it's a part of their livelihood. Falsely believing they are you "friends" is exactly what they want to see because they know they can cajole bigger giveaways from you to them.

This is all part of what makes casinos successful. Inexperienced players and in fact unwise experienced players, keep the casinos going and the machines filled for those of us who understand what's going on and why. So I offer my sincere thanks to you and others like you.

I'll end this discussion on that note. Now go back and re-start the worrying about who gives the best freebies.

[regnis]

I have always had a good rapport with dealers, but I am pretty easy to get along with and am nice to all servers in any industry. But other than a few dealers who are just a-holes, none are my enemy or want me to lose. In fact, I have filed bankruptcies for half the dealers in this area, and have handled probate matters for several as well. All of those actions could get them fired.

They are far from casino bull dogs looking to take your last dollar. They have also testified on my behalf in a claim against the casino on a craps issue that I won on appeal.

Trust me Rob--whenever there is a question about a missing chip or a hardway bet that was not booked, they vouch for me and the bet gets paid. It's as simple as being civil with people with whom I interact.

[Alan Mendelson]

Regnis I have missed placing a bet and have had dealers pay me as if I had made the bet.

[Rob.Singer]

Anecdotal events and/or feelings does not change the common sense fact that if you lose, it will be much better for any casino employee than if you win. And even the financially strapped dealers understand that.

[whodat]

Whodat let us know how and where you end up playing. I look for to trip report.

Will do RoeIncarnate. Will likely play Aria but not firm on that

[Alan Mendelson]

Anecdotal events and/or feelings does not change the common sense fact that if you lose, it will be much better for any casino employee than if you win. And even the financially strapped dealers understand that.

I wonder if this is true? If dealers make more money from tips than from the casino paycheck wouldn't dealers want the players to win so they'll tip?

[BYLee291]

Regarding tipping, I'm considered a fairly generous tipper at the CET property I stay at, but I only do so when I'm winning at that particular session. Usually, it's a piggyback pass line bet with odds or I piggyback something on the six and eight, if that's what's hitting, and I add to it if the roll continues. I live in New York, so I get to Las Vegas once or twice a year and have always stayed at the same hotel, so I'm not a regular by any means, but most of the dealers remember me on my semiannual trips. There have been times when I've not put down odds because I was distracted by something, and the point hits. Some of the dealers have actually called a floor manager over and told him or her what my odds bet has been the whole time I've been there, and the floor manager will tell me to put it down after the fact, and they'll pay it off. We're not talking any huge amount, but still, this isn't normal procedure by any means. During a long roll, I've also had dealers get to me on a payout and ask me exactly what I want to do, in effect, slowing down the game just for a few seconds, which I'm appreciative of.

During a chat with a manager about player ratings, he told me what my average bet in the system was, which was 100% accurate and included pass line odds. He also told me that their particular crew rated me quite a bit higher because they "liked me." I have no idea if that's because of tipping, or because I'm usually pretty polite.

Finally, for whatever it's worth, dealers have told me they hate it when the tables are cold because people just don't play and there is no tipping when that happens, plus they end up just standing around, which can be more boring than dealing. One of them told me what his tip take a week was, and what other dealers make in tips at hotels like the Cosmo. The tip take was much higher than a $20.00 per hour salary would be for 35-hour work week. He also told me that while he could make more at a place like the Cosmo, he had been at this hotel long enough that he was getting eight weeks of vacation, which he valued more than whatever he could make at another hotel.

[regnis]

That sounds like my experience for the most part. They do rely on their tips for a great majority of their pay, and the best way to do that is to be nice, helpful, funny, etc. It is not in their benefit to be jerks. On the rare occasion when I have had a particularly bad dealer, I have insisted that he be removed and they would accommodate me. I can't do that anymore. Don't forget that any dealer has the right to get upset with jerks blowing smoke in their faces all day and just being stupid and disrupting the game. Tough job--I did it underground for many years but with a higher class of players.

I was particularly close with a box man at Caesars that, if he saw me walking by, would get up from behind the table and come and kiss me and my wife for no other reason than we had fun over the years at the craps table. he did also take me golfing a couple times. No secret devious intent--nothing to get me to bet more or longer--just became friends. I felt really bad when they got rid of the box men but luckily his wife was loaded.

[Rob.Singer]

I agree that for some reason people who are winning do leave better tips, so in one aspect the dealers should be rooting for you. But....they also can think down the road a bit, and what that tells them is if you lose their employment is safer. It's probably a tough line for them to walk mentally.

However regnis, why would you be concerned with how much a dealer earns and how much of his income relies on tips as a reason for tipping these stiffs? Does he have any clue about where your income comes from and why? Maybe he should be leaving YOU the tip. How do you know, and why does anyone care?

[Alan Mendelson]

Rob... if players lose at craps they don't play and that is a greater threat to the employment of craps dealers than if you win. Winning players tip. Losing players don't tip.

Rob, playing table games is a different world than playing machines. It really is a different world.

[regnis]

I agree that for some reason people who are winning do leave better tips, so in one aspect the dealers should be rooting for you. But....they also can think down the road a bit, and what that tells them is if you lose their employment is safer. It's probably a tough line for them to walk mentally.

However regnis, why would you be concerned with how much a dealer earns and how much of his income relies on tips as a reason for tipping these stiffs? Does he have any clue about where your income comes from and why? Maybe he should be leaving YOU the tip. How do you know, and why does anyone care?

Actually I am not in the least bit concerned about their income. Just stating the realities of how they earn their income. I am not a big tipper in craps, but if I do tip I keep their action in play so it may appear to be more than it was.

[Alan Mendelson]

Rob, would you call them "stiffs" to their face?

Craps is a social game, and interacting with the dealers is a social event. Since you are not a social person you belong in the video poker section.

By the way, several of the long time dealers I play with at Caesars are teachers, and have investment property that they own and manage, and work in real estate and have various businesses. They aren't stiffs.

[BYLee291]

To amend my earlier post about putting bets down for dealers as tips, I do so for good service and thoughtful dealers when I'm winning, but never for dealers who are rude to either me or others at the table. Fortunately, I have found the bad ones to be rare. Just as important, I've told dealers that I bet for them because I acknowledge that they're doing a job I could never do. Yes, it's a service industry, but I've seen drunk and sober players abuse dealers or accuse them of some imaginary slight or blame them for their losing, and this happens with high rollers and $5 bettors. I've worked in service industries, and to be able to stand there as a dealer and take it is something I'm pretty sure I couldn't do. So, I tip to show the dealers that not all players are jerks, and I thank them at the end of my session, whether I've won or not.

[Rob.Singer]

Rob... if players lose at craps they don't play and that is a greater threat to the employment of craps dealers than if you win. Winning players tip. Losing players don't tip.

Rob, playing table games is a different world than playing machines. It really is a different world.

I understand that. If you're going in without caring whether you win or lose and are just there to throw your money around while labeling that a "good time" that's one thing. But if you are doing what nearly every player is doing which is trying to win money, then a tip will do nothing to help you reach that goal and it in fact becomes a facilitator for losing. Who cares about comraderie or smiles or after hours friendships, business relationships, and feeling great about losing? And most definitely, who cares how dealers make their income? You either go into a casino to win money or you go in to give it away.

[Alan Mendelson]

Rob several real players have posted here about how dealers help them win. Consider tipping a cost of doing business and as an aid to winning. Of course, this is something you will never understand.

[Rob.Singer]

Rob several real players have posted here about how dealers help them win. Consider tipping a cost of doing business and as an aid to winning. Of course, this is something you will never understand.

And that's totally ridiculous. Imagine telling any casino manager that his dealers are "helping people win" and that the players who tip have been using the practice as an aid for winning. Then we have tipping as a cost of doing business? What business are you in when gambling, and are you writing them off?

As I said, some of this stuff is simply beyond belief.