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Thread: When 7/5 Bonus Poker is BETTER than 8/5 Bonus Poker.

  1. #41
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    I found that out as soon as I switched from playing DDB to Bonus/Aces and Faces at Rincon. My weekly offers tumbled from as much as $800 to where they are now at about $80.
    It's possible that CET mailers improve when higher-variance, higher denomination games are given some decent coin-in, such as what you seemed to witness with DDB.

    If one certain game being played created offers 10 times as good as the other game with roughly the same coin-in, it might be worth investigating why this is happening a bit more.

  2. #42
    Three things contributed to my cut in offers:

    1. The switch from DDB to Bonus/Aces and Faces.
    2. Lower levels of play at Aces and Faces.
    3. The overall cut in offers and comps.

    But the biggest "cut" came when I switched from DDB to Aces and Faces (Bonus). The other cuts were smaller and came over time.

  3. #43
    Just found one I like-with the ultimate X games. It's called Random Rewards and you bet 6 credits instead of 5. I hit 4 A's today on BP and was paid $235-more than ddbp..

  4. #44
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Three things contributed to my cut in offers:

    1. The switch from DDB to Bonus/Aces and Faces.
    2. Lower levels of play at Aces and Faces.
    3. The overall cut in offers and comps.

    But the biggest "cut" came when I switched from DDB to Aces and Faces (Bonus). The other cuts were smaller and came over time.
    You are overestimating #1.

    I am skeptical that there is much difference at all in the theo generated between identical play at DDB and Aces/Faces. This is from examining the theo generated at full pay games I played this year at CET. I think there is more of a blanket theo they use for VP games at a given limit.

    I believe your major cuts were due to lower levels of play and a general philosophy recently at CET to give weaker offers.
    Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com

  5. #45
    Dan I am pretty positive that the switch from DDB was the major cause. But it's just an academic discussion at this point.

  6. #46
    I'm not getting what all this talk about "theo" has to do with comps or offers. I heard that theory all thru the 90's & 2000's so I did an investigation up and down the Strip, in N. Nevada & Laughlin, and downtown. Then I reported my findings in an article.

    When I questioned casino managers, marketing directors, and/or business development managers about how & if they use this theo as a way to determine comps etc., some said it had nothing to do with it and more than half didn't even know what it meant. Most did say that it was a player's win/loss pattern that determined what they got.

    So all this bantering about and theorizing the what's and what ifs? Not time we'll spent. Hosts are some of the dumbest casino employees around, and they will tell you anything to sound important or smart.

  7. #47
    Not to rudely interrupt this discussion, I was wondering a couple of things for Total Rewards.

    1. Does it matter where you get the tier points? This discussion is primarily determining the better play 7/5 or 8/5 Bonus Poker for Caesars Palace in Vegas, so do you have to play there to get offers from there? The Rio has $1 8/5 Bonus Poker for $10 coin in per tier credit. I think 5000 hands for both days on a single weekend should work for most people wanting maintain Diamond status or ten weekends for 7 stars (they should be there that often to maximize their benefit).

    The MGM M-Life rewards program does take into where you have played for the free hotel offers, otherwise the higher tier membership gets substantial discounts to where they want to stay.

    2. For the Diamond in a Day or Platinum in a Day play, do you also get the reward credits along with the bonus tier credits. Meaning if you play 5000 tier credits in a day and get the 10000 bonus tier credits, do you end up with 15000 reward credits given that 1 tier credit of casino play is 1 reward credit?

  8. #48
    Originally Posted by alpax View Post
    1. Does it matter where you get the tier points? This discussion is primarily determining the better play 7/5 or 8/5 Bonus Poker for Caesars Palace in Vegas, so do you have to play there to get offers from there? The Rio has $1 8/5 Bonus Poker for $10 coin in per tier credit. I think 5000 hands for both days on a single weekend should work for most people wanting maintain Diamond status or ten weekends for 7 stars (they should be there that often to maximize their benefit).
    Are you sure about this? I see it listed on vpfree2, but have you verified these machines exist for $10/tier?

    Anyway, the problem is that, even if real, these machines are $1/credit. This means it will be SLOOOOOOW earning tier credits.

    How slow?

    Even if you play VP fast, it will probably take you 10 hours of play to earn 2500 tier credits, and 20 hours of play (nearly impossible in a 24 hour period) to earn 5000 tiers.

    So forget Diamond in a Day. Diamond in 2 days can be done, but it will require 20 hours of play in 2 days.

    But to answer your question, if you play a lot at the Rio, you should get offers from all Vegas casinos affiliated with CET.


    Originally Posted by alpax
    2. For the Diamond in a Day or Platinum in a Day play, do you also get the reward credits along with the bonus tier credits. Meaning if you play 5000 tier credits in a day and get the 10000 bonus tier credits, do you end up with 15000 reward credits given that 1 tier credit of casino play is 1 reward credit?
    No, you don't earn RCs on bonus tiers. If you earn 5000 base tier credits on a $10/tier machine, you will only have earned $50.00 in RCs.
    Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com

  9. #49
    Dan, much appreciated for the responses.

    I even verified that the $1 8/5 Bonus Poker at the Rio did accrue a tier credit every $10 coin in as recent as this past week

    I called up a buddy who was staying at the Rio (he does not play video poker) to check out those machines the first thing he got there so he started at 0. I told him where to find them and to play 2 hands over the phone (told me what got dealt), got 2 pairs on the first hand and a loss on the second hand, so I do not owe him anything. He verified that his tier credit went up by one. It is still there at $10 a tier credit. I was able to verify there is 9/6 DDB and 9/7 DB on the very same machine.

    Yes I do recall we did have quite a thread with regards to how long this will take to play on that machine. The quickest option in Vegas is either the $5 9/5 Jacks or Better at the Rio or Bally's, or maybe the 9/5 Double STP Jacks or Better for 3-line $1 at Harrah's ($21 a spin at 98.95% theoretical return with HIGH variance).

  10. #50
    If there are any casino execs reading what's going on here then they are licking their chops. Players talking constantly & seriously about playing for slot card status and "reward credits" instead of playing to win & how to play to win money, is their elixir of life. It seems that few if any ever learn a thing from the seldom but useful inputs that populate these forums, and even less people learn from all their losing. What a shame. Rather, the thrills seem to endlessly evolve thru repetitive discussions of which machines need $10 or $25 for a sacred "RC" or if hosts (who obviously care nothing about any of their clients beyond the actual....and not "theoretical"... amounts they lose) can hand out discretionary comps or if you can save two lousy bucks on this buffet vs. that buffet. And please don't forget if and how an extra comp can be squeezed out of Mlife vs. Total Rewards, or lessons given on how to show no shame and neurotically argue with hosts, front desks, & supervisors over the occasional, totally incomprehensible $3 "overcharge" on your bill.

    It is almost beyond all belief.
    Last edited by Rob.Singer; 07-18-2015 at 07:11 AM.

  11. #51
    Rob, I take it that you didn't earn many gold stars on your papers in second grade? You probably hated your den mother, too, and didn't make Webelos.

  12. #52
    Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Are you sure about this? I see it listed on vpfree2, but have you verified these machines exist for $10/tier?

    Anyway, the problem is that, even if real, these machines are $1/credit. This means it will be SLOOOOOOW earning tier credits.

    How slow?

    Even if you play VP fast, it will probably take you 10 hours of play to earn 2500 tier credits, and 20 hours of play (nearly impossible in a 24 hour period) to earn 5000 tiers.

    So forget Diamond in a Day. Diamond in 2 days can be done, but it will require 20 hours of play in 2 days.

    But to answer your question, if you play a lot at the Rio, you should get offers from all Vegas casinos affiliated with CET.




    No, you don't earn RCs on bonus tiers. If you earn 5000 base tier credits on a $10/tier machine, you will only have earned $50.00 in RCs.
    Wtf are you talking about?

    500 HPH is "fast"? I got over 5k TC in a little over 10 or 11 hours. Think it was like 5.6k or 6.5k TC.

  13. #53
    Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    if you play a lot at the Rio, you should get offers from all Vegas casinos affiliated with CET.
    While this is true, where you play will influence the "extra offers" that a host can get for you.

    I know TR players who play heavily at Rincon but can't get anything at Caesars outside of "normal offers." That means if there is a special weekend or if they need something extra the answer will be "no."

    Over July 4th weekend, a friend of mine who is a very heavy player at Rincon wanted to go to Caesars -- and could not get a room or get into the party. He is a high diamond. He had a very weak history of play at Caesars.

  14. #54
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    While this is true, where you play will influence the "extra offers" that a host can get for you.

    I know TR players who play heavily at Rincon but can't get anything at Caesars outside of "normal offers." That means if there is a special weekend or if they need something extra the answer will be "no."

    Over July 4th weekend, a friend of mine who is a very heavy player at Rincon wanted to go to Caesars -- and could not get a room or get into the party. He is a high diamond. He had a very weak history of play at Caesars.
    Yes and no.

    It is 100% true that you have very little cross-market power regarding getting extras. Rincon and Vegas are different markets.

    However, if you play a lot in Vegas, you will typically have access to extras at other Vegas properties via your host.
    Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com

  15. #55
    Originally Posted by RS__ View Post
    Wtf are you talking about?

    500 HPH is "fast"? I got over 5k TC in a little over 10 or 11 hours. Think it was like 5.6k or 6.5k TC.
    Congrats for being a breakneck speed VP player, I guess.

    Most people can't do that.

    When I say "fast", I mean playing fairly quickly and not taking any significant breaks. You will get in about 500 hands per hour doing that.

    Maybe a super fast player could get in 1000 hands per hour, but that's not common, and that's not the speed I would advise most players they could achieve.
    Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com

  16. #56
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    If there are any casino execs reading what's going on here then they are licking their chops. Players talking constantly & seriously about playing for slot card status and "reward credits" instead of playing to win & how to play to win money, is their elixir of life. It seems that few if any ever learn a thing from the seldom but useful inputs that populate these forums, and even less people learn from all their losing. What a shame. Rather, the thrills seem to endlessly evolve thru repetitive discussions of which machines need $10 or $25 for a sacred "RC" or if hosts (who obviously care nothing about any of their clients beyond the actual....and not "theoretical"... amounts they lose) can hand out discretionary comps or if you can save two lousy bucks on this buffet vs. that buffet. And please don't forget if and how an extra comp can be squeezed out of Mlife vs. Total Rewards, or lessons given on how to show no shame and neurotically argue with hosts, front desks, & supervisors over the occasional, totally incomprehensible $3 "overcharge" on your bill.

    It is almost beyond all belief.
    I know you don't believe this, but casino execs actually hate people who take advantage of maximum benefits for the minimum amount of play.

    They make little to no money on players like that, even if the players lose a little bit of money in the process of earning their status (due to overhead and the cost of providing the comps).

    This is why Seven Stars grinders get terrible offers and hosts don't make much (or any) commission off of them.
    Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com

  17. #57
    Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    I know you don't believe this, but casino execs actually hate people who take advantage of maximum benefits for the minimum amount of play.

    They make little to no money on players like that, even if the players lose a little bit of money in the process of earning their status (due to overhead and the cost of providing the comps).

    This is why Seven Stars grinders get terrible offers and hosts don't make much (or any) commission off of them.
    Since these tier bonuses allow players to achieve higher statuses with one-third of the normal play it takes to enter. Will they receive just a third of what normal Seven Star players get? Seems like Total Rewards use the Average Daily Theoretical based on the threads I've seen.

    10 Diamond in a Day to get into Seven Stars represents 50,000 TC of actual play and 100,000 TC coming in the form of bonus points.

    I had someone check out what the quarter games were set at, it was 8/5 DDB, 7/5 Jacks or Better, 6/5 Bonus Poker, 9/5 Double Bonus, and 25/16/13/4/3 Deuces Wild. All approximately 96% return games, so forget going the quarter route.

  18. #58
    Your offers will have nothing to do with your tier level. Some people get better offers as Gold than others do at Seven Stars (I've seen this with my own eyes!)

    Seven Stars is only for its guaranteed benefits (free rooms, priority lines, lounges, annual trip, $500 worth of meals, cruise, etc). It doesn't matter how you get there.
    Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com

  19. #59
    Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Your offers will have nothing to do with your tier level. Some people get better offers as Gold than others do at Seven Stars (I've seen this with my own eyes!)

    Seven Stars is only for its guaranteed benefits (free rooms, priority lines, lounges, annual trip, $500 worth of meals, cruise, etc). It doesn't matter how you get there.
    Understood the reasoning, thanks for the explanation.

    I can also understand that the Gold player can get better offers than the Seven Stars player if they happen to be the penny video slot players and quit playing before reaching 2500 TC ($12,500 coin in). Penny video slot players are the most valuable commodity for a casino. With at least a 10% hold, the penny player would have already lost more than a thousand dollars on a single play day.

  20. #60
    Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Congrats for being a breakneck speed VP player, I guess.

    Most people can't do that.

    When I say "fast", I mean playing fairly quickly and not taking any significant breaks. You will get in about 500 hands per hour doing that.

    Maybe a super fast player could get in 1000 hands per hour, but that's not common, and that's not the speed I would advise most players they could achieve.
    Then our ideas of "fast" are different. I say 700-800 HPH is average. Less than 700 is slow. 800-1000 is fast. Above 1K HPH is super fast.

    I don't see how playing 1 hand every ~13-14 seconds is at all "fast"

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