Jacks Or Better vs Bonus Video Poker Games

[Alan Mendelson]

I think this is worth it's own thread because there are a lot of reasons you might favor the standard, basic Jacks or Better video poker game or the various Bonus games.

I started on Jacks or Better just as probably everyone has. But it was the appeal of the bonus hands including quads with kickers that made me jump to Double Double Bonus and then Triple Double Bonus. But -- and it's a big but -- the long wait between those bonus hands was too expensive.

Yeah, I once got dealt quad aces with a kicker twice in fifteen minutes (really, dealt) but there were too many sessions I never had a quad with or without a kicker.

So I switched to Bonus poker and its variation Aces and Faces which I thought was a good paying compromise between Jacks and the DDB and TDB games.

Sometimes I will try a DDB or TDB game -- and sometimes I got lucky. A few weeks ago at Caesars I had a nice run of aces with kickers playing those games.

What has kept me away from JOB is the "pain" of getting hands like AAAA and realizing it paid no more than 9999.

One game I've sworn off is any version of deuces wild. I consider that slow death while I consider JOB staying in the game as you wait for a royal.

With Bonus there are those sessions when the right quads can give you a nice win.

[Rob.Singer]

Basically, what I wrote in the other thread holds true here. JoB is for the people who either have little money to start with, or they are afraid of losing. No one can consistently win on this game, and there can be no strategy used outside of the meaningless, time-wasting, long-term grind.

BP is a main staple of mine and should be for anyone interested in winning TODAY....every time you play. And while my main SPS as well as ARTT also utilize advanced BP games (SDBP, TBP+, SABP, DDBP in that order of preference) I play RTT only on BP often.

Anyone who plays the wild card games or any of those newer gimmick games like ultimate X or dream card etc. do so because of internet fascination with these stupid games or because they expect to lose but want to have fun doing so. In short, they know not what they do.

[slingshot]

In some casinos, it"s the only option for the artt strategy. In fact I have to check some machines as they have placed some bp machines with a push for two pair among the regular bp games.

[Rob.Singer]

Shouldn't be played then.

JoB is, like Alan said, what most of us learned on. People who play it "almost exclusively" either are too lazy to do what it takes to learn the money games, or they're not smart enough to learn the optimal strategy for those games.

[Alan Mendelson]

When you come down to it, there are only two big winning hands in Jacks or Better: the royal and the straight flush. The other winning hands will keep you in the game until, hopefully, you hit a royal.

But how often do you hit a royal? And if you are not hitting royals regularly, then any hiccup in the variance of JOB will kill you.

[RS__]

But how often do you hit a royal? And if you are not hitting royals regularly, then any hiccup in the variance of JOB will kill you.

JOB is a 0.5% loser overall. Without the royal, about 2.5% loser. Most sessions you won't hit a royal (unless you play very long session, use a different [bad] strategy, and/or play multi-line).

Let's say you play 1,000 hands (about 4 hours of play, right Alan?), run bad, and don't hit a four of a kind. You're at about ~9% loser at this point for the session.

DDB is a 1% loser overall. Without the royal, again, about 2.5% loser. But you also gotta take into account those other big hands like Aces+Kicker, Aces, or 2/3/4's with kicker. Most sessions you won't hit those hands. That puts you at a 13% loser.

If you play the same 1,000 hands (about 4 hours of play?), and run bad without any 4OAKS or better, you're losing about 22% of your action.


In JOB, even if you hit a royal every 2 cycles, you'll be at a 2.5% loss. That's a little more than 2x the loss on DDB overall [including bonus 4oaks and all].


If you wanna play for fun, DDB is probably the better way to go, or even BP. But make no mistake, the variance in DDB will kill you much faster than the variance in JOB. Alan, didn't you say before that you quit playing DDB because you were getting wrecked playing it?

[Alan Mendelson]

In DDB and even in Bonus I don't have to play four hours. And I don't need kickers. AAAA in $5 bonus or DDB pays $2000 or $4000 and that could be a nice walking profit. At $5 Jacks it's only $625. 2222, 3333, 4444 without kickers pay okay too.

[Rob.Singer]

Once again RS__ uses theory to describe reality. If you're playing a 99% game you're in no way "losing" 1% of your action unless you actually lose 1% of what you've played--which almost never happens. Again, an armchair AP reading from a book. Just what we need....

[Alan Mendelson]

The problem with all theoretical returns is that they include a royal every 42,000 hands, approximately. In reality, you eliminate the royal -- not because you can't get one but because in any session you are unlikely to get one. That immediately reduces the return by two percent or 2.5 percent -- you take your choice.

In the bonus games you have a chance to make up for that deficit with the quads, or the quads with a kicker.

In Jacks or Better you lack the chance of those bigger wins.

[slingshot]

Shouldn't be played then.

JoB is, like Alan said, what most of us learned on. People who play it "almost exclusively" either are too lazy to do what it takes to learn the money games, or they're not smart enough to learn the optimal strategy for those games.

Doesn't come into play that much. I have 3 out of about 20 machines that DO pay 2 credits for 2 pair on bp. That's usually plenty.

[ddb1]

DDB for me. Aces, AWAK, royals, 2-4 w/kicker all pay at least $800 - which matches my bankroll. If one of those hands hit, I leave a winner for that day. It sure feels good to go home a winner. If I don't hit one, I will likely go bust. So be it, get 'em next time.

[Alan Mendelson]

ddb1 any quads for you is more than 25% of your bankroll. I agree with your strategy.

[RS__]

Once again RS__ uses theory to describe reality. If you're playing a 99% game you're in no way "losing" 1% of your action unless you actually lose 1% of what you've played--which almost never happens. Again, an armchair AP reading from a book. Just what we need....

So what happened in 2014, where I put in a little over $1M coin in, and my overall return for that coin in was slightly less than 99.5%? This is reality.



Alan, you may have a "chance" to make up for it....but still, quite unlikely you're gonna hit one of those premium hands. Playing JOB is like trying to toss a volley-ball straight up in the air and having it land right in front of you, on a windy day. Playing DDB is like trying to do the same thing, but with a balloon, in the middle of a hurricane. Hmm....perhaps I should not have written that, on account you can't figure out what an analogy is.

Can you remind us, Alan, why did you quit playing DDB?

[Alan Mendelson]

I do not advocate DDB. I've been playing Bonus or its better paying cousin Aces and Faces.

Frankly I can't understand why an AP wouldn't be playing Bonus especially with the analogy you just gave RS__. Did you leave out Bonus on purpose?

[alpax]

So what happened in 2014, where I put in a little over $1M coin in, and my overall return for that coin in was slightly less than 99.5%? This is reality.



Alan, you may have a "chance" to make up for it....but still, quite unlikely you're gonna hit one of those premium hands. Playing JOB is like trying to toss a volley-ball straight up in the air and having it land right in front of you, on a windy day. Playing DDB is like trying to do the same thing, but with a balloon, in the middle of a hurricane. Hmm....perhaps I should not have written that, on account you can't figure out what an analogy is.

Can you remind us, Alan, why did you quit playing DDB?

At least if you got at least $5000 worth of free play mailers, meal vouchers, travel reimbursement, discretionary comps by the casino host, gifts, entertainment invitations, and contest wins, you would be a winner based on Bob Dancer perspective to recreational players. Of course Dancer will keep his best secrets to himself.

I studied the long term bell curve of Jacks or Better, the variance is low enough for 90% of the data to be within 99.1 - 99.7% return after 1 million rounds. So it is possible at the worst case scenario to be a smaller loser than a non-card counting blackjack player.

[regnis]

I can watch paint dry, which is just as much fun as JOB, and has a 100% return with no variance. For my hour or 2 of play, I want a little excitement and I play the higher bonus games.

[alpax]

DDB for me. Aces, AWAK, royals, 2-4 w/kicker all pay at least $800 - which matches my bankroll. If one of those hands hit, I leave a winner for that day. It sure feels good to go home a winner. If I don't hit one, I will likely go bust. So be it, get 'em next time.

Is getting three 5's thru Kings quads in a day (as Alan mentioned it is still a good chunk) a good stopping point too? Or two 4 2s, 3s, 4s hits?

I've had a good amount of times where $800 did not even last 2 hours on $1 9/6 DDB. So I had to change up my approach.

If I go to one of my two frequent local casinos, I play 500 rounds of $1 9/6 DDB. If I get at least one quad of any kind or a straight flush, I play another 500 rounds. If I do not, I stop for the day at those 500 rounds.

[alpax]

I can watch paint dry, which is just as much fun as JOB, and has a 100% return with no variance. For my hour or 2 of play, I want a little excitement and I play the higher bonus games.

I believe you are referring to a change machine ...

[regnis]

Haven't we all lost $$ in a change machine now and then. Paint has less variance.

[redietz]

Speaking of change, I see that Ellis Island was doing a promo where if you dragged up to $400 in change into their place, they gave you 20% more in free play. So $400 in coin gets $480 fp. Anybody know if this is still on?