Jacks Or Better vs Bonus Video Poker Games

[RS__]

If the winning and losing hands are almost identical, and the variance in DDB & BP is higher because if the higher payouts,
then is it correct to conclude that higher variance is in the player's favor?

If the player wants "fun" or in other words, volatility, then yeah, higher variance is generally preferred. If you just gotta get X points to get Y $$ back, you should prefer lower variance. That's why degenerates and regular gamblers prefer DDB and APs prefer JOB. You'll notice just about every single VP machine has DDB on it. Many machines don't even have JOB on them. Nice theories about casino managers loving 9/6 JOB and offer it everywhere, Rob, because many/most casinos do not offer 9/6 JOB.

[Rob.Singer]

If the player wants "fun" or in other words, volatility, then yeah, higher variance is generally preferred. If you just gotta get X points to get Y $$ back, you should prefer lower variance. That's why degenerates and regular gamblers prefer DDB and APs prefer JOB. You'll notice just about every single VP machine has DDB on it. Many machines don't even have JOB on them. Nice theories about casino managers loving 9/6 JOB and offer it everywhere, Rob, because many/most casinos do not offer 9/6 JOB.

You need to get out more. The casino's most boring game in 9/6 fashion, is offered at more casinos than the one's that don't have it. And it remains the #1 game of poker machine addicts. Get your facts straight.

And wise up.

[coach belly]

When I asked if higher variance favored the player, I wasn't asking if it was more "fun".

I was asking if higher variance favored the player's chances to win.

This is still unclear to me.

If the winning hands are almost identical, and the variance in BP and DDB are higher because of higher payouts for quads,
then does that mean that higher variance favors the player's chances to win?

[Alan Mendelson]

RS___ please read carefully what the coach said. The winning hands are the same in Jacks and in Bonus. But some of those winning hands pay more in Bonus. Why bother playing Jacks?

[RS__]

RS___ please read carefully what the coach said. The winning hands are the same in Jacks and in Bonus. But some of those winning hands pay more in Bonus. Why bother playing Jacks?

And 2 much more frequent hands (FH and flush) pay more on Jacks than in Bonus. Why bother playing Bonus?


Coach, higher variance favors the player to get a "big hit", like four Aces. But it doesn't matter. If all you're doing is playing and not doing anything to get an edge, they're all losers (well, except the few 100%+ games, like full pay DW and a few others). If you don't have an edge, you're bound to lose. Ask Alan.

[BadBeet]

Theoretically you get so many more full houses and flushes than four of a kinds that the 9/6 out weights the 8/5 and higher 4oak payouts in Bonus. This is why JOB will have a higher return and be a game more for grinders / AP. A Grinder / AP does not get dealt AAAA2 while playing JOB and think "damn I could have had four aces with a kicker.". When playing JOB or even Bonus you must have a different mindset and understand the majority of your return (income) is from Pairs and Two Pair hits. In DDB TDB and other games all the big 4oaks do is make-up for all the money lost on even money two pairs.

If you want a thrill and the feeling of a quick win, don't play JOB.
If you want a thrill and hold on to as much as you can in the process, play BP.
If you want a thrill and big win but can handle a bigger swing, play DDB / TDB.

Not saying that grinders playing JOB aren't getting a thrill, VP is a very exciting game no matter what you are playing. You just need to understand what you are playing and where the money comes from for that particular game.

You can play by the math, or you can hold what you "feel." That is the beauty of this game.

[Alan Mendelson]

Practically speaking -- you need the bigger pays from quad As, 2s, 3s and 4s to keep you from falling victim to a bad run without those two pairs or even just paying pairs. I think we've all had sessions when we've gone thru 20+ hands without a paying pair. I certainly have. It's the big quads that give you the extra mileage to see a royal.

But like I said -- I want to win and not just grind. I can't buy a new car with grinding. I need big wins.

[RS__]

But like I said -- I want to win and not just grind. I can't buy a new car with grinding. I need big wins.

How has that been working for you?

[coach belly]

OK - so variance is a function of the pay table?

Since DDBP pays 50% less for 2 pair than does JOB or BP, and 2 pair is hit more frequently than trips or better,
your credits will deplete faster in the higher variance games unless/until you hit a bonus hand...which are infrequent.

I see plenty of 9-6 DDBP, so the difference in variance between that and 9-6 JOB comes from the 2-pair hands,
5 credits every x number of hands...where x=the frequency of hitting 2-pair?

[Alan Mendelson]

How has that been working for you?

Take a look at the "big casino wins" thread. Note the win on quad 2s on Bonus for 200 coins. Had I been playing Jacks it would have paid 125 coins.

[coach belly]

How has that been working for you?

Yikes...how's that for serving up a gopherball ?

[Rob.Singer]

You know coach, I've been saying this for years about these big-mouth "AP's" who think they have it all and know it all: What goes around certainly does come around, and in such a righteous way.

Alan got on a run on the $5/$25 machines during this trip, just as I did a few years ago on the $25 machines. I kept almost all of my wins just as he's kept his. No foolish AP logic ever had the math come by to snatch up my winnings "over time" and it won't happen to him either. And if the confused math guys want to rummage thru his past of losing every year and claim the math simply "caught up" with him on this one after years of playing in "negative situations", then they'll have to deal with another of those gopher balls they often find in their basket. That meaningless little "-EV" % won't even come close to explaining where he is today after all those millions played.

Congratulations to Alan & Jason for doing what I've done for so long: make vp theory look stupid.

[Alan Mendelson]

Congratulations to Alan & Jason for doing what I've done for so long: make vp theory look stupid.

Rob, theory is theory. But really, didn't Jason and I just get lucky???

This wasn't the first time we both hit royals on the same trip together. A few years ago we were sitting next to each other in the row of VP machines that face the restrooms in the Palace Casino at Caesars. Almost simultaneously -- only a second or two apart -- Jason got a royal playing $2 DDB and I got a royal playing $1 DDB.

[Rob.Singer]

Absolutely you both got lucky. In fact, every winning hand is the result of good luck. But to those who want to believe that these big winners are simply one of many hands in the life long grind, well, these hands represent some type of skill that is expected and are no big deal.

Isn't reality and good luck great!

[jbjb]

I guessed Fort McDowell since its the best place to play VP in Arizona and I heard of the stories of their transformation to attract VP players. I checked VPFree2 and got it correct.

High variance games like those mean that you have to have a monster bankroll and lot of time on your hands for the outcome to play out the way it should. It carries a $50 coin in per point requirement so its still risky.

Bob Dancer plays that game at Viejas and considers that place the best high limit VP in the world. I think jbjb is wealthy enough to play that game at $25 denomination.

Wrong part the country, at least in the locations I'm thinking. I've not been to any of these places you've listed.

[jbjb]

Ft. McDowell is a dump in addition to a joke, and no player who plays to actually win something plays at an Indian casino anyway.

Interesting that you bring up the $25 denomination. $100k hits are certainly a fairly exclusive club. jbjb probably does assign a $25 denomination to his VPFW gaming.

Never been there nor do I post info on the site. All I mentioned here is that there are places to play those two games for as little as 25¢ denominations. I believe the highest is $2.

[Alan Mendelson]

Last I heard, Pechanga -- the biggest casino in the western US and bigger than anything in Vegas -- has 25-cent 9/6 Jacks. And I think Pauma casino near Rincon (small Indian casino about six miles from Rincon) has 9/6 Jacks up to $1. I was at Pauma about a year ago, and I think $1 is their highest denomination on any single line video poker machine, but they do have a few multi line machines but I didn't look at the paytables.

[alpax]

Last I heard, Pechanga -- the biggest casino in the western US and bigger than anything in Vegas -- has 25-cent 9/6 Jacks. And I think Pauma casino near Rincon (small Indian casino about six miles from Rincon) has 9/6 Jacks up to $1. I was at Pauma about a year ago, and I think $1 is their highest denomination on any single line video poker machine, but they do have a few multi line machines but I didn't look at the paytables.

Correct, I can validate this as of April 2015 they have them in nickels, dimes, quarters, half-dollars, dollars, two dollars, five dollars, ten dollars, twenty five dollars, fifty dollars, and hundred dollars denomination.

[jbjb]

IGT and casinos could put in 10/6 JoB and still, hardly anyone would play it.

[Alan Mendelson]

IGT and casinos could put in 10/6 JoB and still, hardly anyone would play it.

I think you're wrong. I've seen people playing 8/5 Jacks at Rincon. There are many players who think that just the name "Jacks or Better" makes it the best game. My experience has been people don't even look at the pay tables.

I've sat next to players at Rincon who played 8/5 Jacks when 8/5 Bonus was on the same machine and I told them. They looked at me like I was nuts -- and this has happened more than once. Too many people just have no clue.

I think you'll get a ton of people playing 10/6 Jacks but it won't be because they looked at the pay table. LOL