Getting convinced that Bob Dancer doesn't know much about modern CET

[Dan Druff]

Listened to Bob Dancer's podcast tonight, with guest Darryl McEwen of Seven Stars Insider: http://www.slot-machine-resource.com...sts/mcewen.mp3

Dancer made the following untrue/exaggerated statements about CET in 2015:

- Your host should be able to get you $10,000 to $20,000 worth of extra benefits over what you can normally get yourself. If he can't, you need a different host.

- If you want better comps from your host, make sure to approach him/her after you have a losing session. If you only approach your host when you lose, you will get great comps, and then you just don't bother to ask for anything when you win, yet your overall losses will be small (because of the winning sessions), and your comps will be great compared to your losses.

FALSE, on both counts.

That's not how modern CET works.

CET hosts are given discretion mostly based upon your AMT (average marketing theoretical), and NOT your actual losses. While a host has some additional leeway and may be slightly more generous after you've taken a bad loss, it won't be a significant difference.

Furthermore, you will NEVER get $10k-$20k worth of RFB and other benefits out of your host, unless your theoretical loss is several times that. And if your yearly theoretical loss is something like $100k..... well.... let's just say you need to reevaluate your gambling habit, unless you're super rich.

There's no way Dancer is getting $10k-$20k of benefits out of his CET host in 2015.

The only way he could be doing that is if he has found a machine that is generating a grossly incorrect theo -- such as one that is 99% return but generating a theo of 10% coin in loss. But I don't think any of those exist at CET right now, and haven't in awhile.

While I am not exactly a fan of Rob Singer, I think he's somewhat right about Bob Dancer. The guy loves to shoot off his mouth, but a lot of what he says simply isn't true, and a lot of the advice he gives is either antiquated or simply bad.

[Robsingerwho]

Bob is wrong about a lot of thugs and a total snitch- and ruined the revel promotion. He also is very creepy and somehow works a creepy sexual reference into almost every show - whether

[redietz]

I think when evaluating Dancer that it may be prudent to give him more intellectual firepower credit than Dan has here, and less, shall we say, intellectual honesty credit. In other words, Dancer is at that point where he may be benefiting more from his casino connections and income streams than he does from playing. It wouldn't surprise me if he purposefully misreports a lot of stuff because he's basically in the business's pocket. Misreporting the CET stuff serves the dual purpose of cranking up Dancer's "inside info" credibility with listeners while helping CET make money. Not a bad gig.

Rob's old publisher, Gaming Today, has always been in the same kind of position really, where they are trying to generate revenue for casinos while superficially posing as the players' friend.

[Alan Mendelson]

I don't understand how Dancer's comment about hosts and big discretionary comps could help any casino. If anything it will cause trouble for every host in Vegas.

[nerakil]

Context, Mr. Witteles. When Dancer mentions his go-to phrase "the care and feeding of a slot host", he is not referring to specifically CET hosts.

He as alluded in past podcast episodes to what a slot host can generate for him (listen to the episodes with guests Royal Cat, Jimmy Jazz). For example: getting an entry into a slot tournament he otherwise was not invited to, cashing expired slot play or cashback, redeeming gift cards in a giveaway and holding it for him.

[nerakil]

On the topic of mismarked video poker machine, how would you take advantage of the following: there is a 50c single line game at my local CET property that returns >100%, but the theo is set at 4% when the host looks it up on the computer.

I've been doing the following: play 500 tier points ($5K coin-in, $200 "expected loss"), then ask the host on duty for a $75 steakhouse/seafood restaurant comp, which I have gotten 4 times successfully, no questions asked. It does cost me $5 in comps each time I ask (or $4 in converted free play), but overall a great deal for a couple hours play.

[Dan Druff]

Context, Mr. Witteles. When Dancer mentions his go-to phrase "the care and feeding of a slot host", he is not referring to specifically CET hosts.

He as alluded in past podcast episodes to what a slot host can generate for him (listen to the episodes with guests Royal Cat, Jimmy Jazz). For example: getting an entry into a slot tournament he otherwise was not invited to, cashing expired slot play or cashback, redeeming gift cards in a giveaway and holding it for him.

It was a little bit weird, because I thought I heard Dancer AND the other host say that CET hosts have very little power these days. When Dancer started singing the praises of using hosts, McEwen asked, "Didn't you say CET hosts have very little power?", and Dancer replied, "I said nothing of the sort". I thought the exact same as McEwen when I heard that, making me believe that we both heard correctly, and Dancer was just changing his story.

Dancer did very clearly state at that point that your CET host should be doing a lot for you. I would have given him more credit if he said, "This doesn't work at CET, but at other properties...", yet he didn't say that. In fact, he even advocated blowing your RCs so a host can start comping you (which is, of course, CET specific).

Blowing your RCs in order to get discretionary comps is only smart if:

1) You play regularly and have very few "no play" trips
-and-
2) You are not overcomped

The problem is that any good AP in the CET system should be overcomped (or close to it), unless he has found some exploitable machine which is returning way too high of a theo.

[Dan Druff]

On the topic of mismarked video poker machine, how would you take advantage of the following: there is a 50c single line game at my local CET property that returns >100%, but the theo is set at 4% when the host looks it up on the computer.

I've been doing the following: play 500 tier points ($5K coin-in, $200 "expected loss"), then ask the host on duty for a $75 steakhouse/seafood restaurant comp, which I have gotten 4 times successfully, no questions asked. It does cost me $5 in comps each time I ask (or $4 in converted free play), but overall a great deal for a couple hours play.

How is it costing you $4 in converted freeplay each time?

I am shocked that a 100%+ machine still exists at CET. Do they just not realize its return?

I think you're mostly doing this right. At 50c single line, you aren't going to generate massive coin-in no matter what, but the good thing is that you are never going to get crushed on it, even if variance doesn't go your way.

BTW I have noticed that most CET machines are over-theo'd, so the 4% you think you're getting isn't quite as good as you might think. That is factored into the equation when they compute your comps. I think they over-theo the machines in order to account for the fact that the average player doesn't play perfect strategy. But at the same time, they have gotten tighter with comps, so it's not like you are cleaning up with the comps at CET properties even with the over-theo.

[RS__]

On the topic of mismarked video poker machine, how would you take advantage of the following: there is a 50c single line game at my local CET property that returns >100%, but the theo is set at 4% when the host looks it up on the computer.

I've been doing the following: play 500 tier points ($5K coin-in, $200 "expected loss"), then ask the host on duty for a $75 steakhouse/seafood restaurant comp, which I have gotten 4 times successfully, no questions asked. It does cost me $5 in comps each time I ask (or $4 in converted free play), but overall a great deal for a couple hours play.

Quit getting comped. Well it doesn't matter anymore. But I probably would'a played it to a much higher theo loss, and not get comped dinners all the time (they're a waste)....especially because the comps will come later.

Do they have a higher denom of is $0.50 the max?

[Dan Druff]

Quit getting comped. Well it doesn't matter anymore. But I probably would'a played it to a much higher theo loss, and not get comped dinners all the time (they're a waste)....especially because the comps will come later.

Do they have a higher denom of is $0.50 the max?

1) How is a comped dinner a "waste"?

2) What is he going to gain by playing it to a higher theo loss? He's not going to earn very much theo playing single-line 50c video poker, even if he sits there for 16 hours per session.

[nerakil]

How is it costing you $4 in converted freeplay each time?

I am shocked that a 100%+ machine still exists at CET. Do they just not realize its return?

I think you're mostly doing this right. At 50c single line, you aren't going to generate massive coin-in no matter what, but the good thing is that you are never going to get crushed on it, even if variance doesn't go your way.

BTW I have noticed that most CET machines are over-theo'd, so the 4% you think you're getting isn't quite as good as you might think. That is factored into the equation when they compute your comps. I think they over-theo the machines in order to account for the fact that the average player doesn't play perfect strategy. But at the same time, they have gotten tighter with comps, so it's not like you are cleaning up with the comps at CET properties even with the over-theo.

I don't about other CET markets, but here at Bally's in AC, hosts can issue paper discretionary comps, if the amount you request exceeds your comp balance. So I ask for $75.00 for a restaurant (example: Guy Fieri's Chophouse), they lookup your play to see if they can cover the additional $70.00. Once approved, they zero out your RCs first (I just played 500 TCs, so they take 500 RCs, which could've been converted to slot play at 1.25:1 later), and add on the additional $70.00. Everything must be spent in one shot, within 48 hours.

Actually, here's a guaranteed Druff-approved play: the best result is to play 499 RCs. Since they can only zero out whole dollar amounts, you only get $4 in comps deducted and keep 99 RCs in your account.

[Dan Druff]

Wouldn't the bigger Druff-approved play be strolling into the gift shop and buying something for $5 to zero out your RCs?

[nerakil]

The hosts sometimes don't like it when the first line on the computer says "10:55AM RC Redemption-Kiosk 17". But yes, that would be the best play. You have to have a minimum balance of $1 to be issued a paper discretionary comp, so you could spend 400 RCs at the gift shop and then go see the host.

[nerakil]

RS__: There is only one denomination: 50c single line. However, your suggestion of playing longer is good because they sell in the gift shop an (overpriced) iPad Air 2 for $600 in RCs. Yes, hosts can issue discretionary comps to the gift shop as well. So, I could generate maybe a $2K theo over a "trip" of several days, and redeem for that.

Well, when I get tired of Ruth's Chris or McCormick and Schmick's, I'll go for the electronics.

[redietz]

I love it when folks get the better of The Borg. Eat that steak to your heart's content!! Kill 'em, baby.

And sometime in late December, ask if you can swing a comped ticket to see Ariana. I have a suspicion that concert may not be as sold out as in the past.

[Alan Mendelson]

I think Caesars will have no problem fill the Ariana concert. People will be at Caesars for NYE regardless of the entertainment.

[Rob.Singer]

I love it. "Only hit your host up for comps when you lose". What a moron. First off, as soon as you talk to a host your comps go DOWN, not up. If you want eyes on you every time you play, contact a host. And guess what happens when you get watched. Yup, if you do well, you'll start wondering where all the good offers went. So many times I've said this, only people seem to love the superficiality of having a relationship with a host: YOU WILL ALWAYS GET MORE LUCRATIVE OFFERS FROM MARKETING-GENERATED MAILINGS THAN YOU EVER WILL FROM SPEAKING TO ANY HOST. And as soon as you get that oh-so-special "extra" from your wonderful, feel-good talk with your smiling host, your overall offers will go down, and you will have confusing conversations with those within the system as you try to get what you thought you were entitled to.

Dancer shoots himself in the foot with these type of statements. He gives the perception of being a big winner, yet he's always doing things that losers do. He might even be better sticking with his creepy sexual innuendos that only a fat old man could love.

[bigfoot66]

If I remember correctly Dancer said that you could get an extra $10k-$20k in VALUE from a host relationship. I had interpreted this to mean that they could provide, among other things, very valuable information that could help you make more profitable gambling decisions. Maybe they could tell you how many tickets are in the drawing, so you can determine the value. Or maybe they can tell you the average value of a "random reward of freeplay for every 1000 points earned" type of promotion. These can be difficult to evaluate unless you have the information to determine some key variables. I did not think he was saying that having a good host allows him to eat an extra $10,000 in steaks and lobster tails.

[Alan Mendelson]

Bigfoot over the years my hosts had very little knowledge of how to play any game. And you think they'd know the odds of drawings?

Years ago I had a host at Caesars who asked me to meet him at a locals' casino to show him how to play craps.

Hosts are either salespeople or order takers. I doubt they have any inside info to help a gambler.

[Rob.Singer]

Yes Alan, Dancer simply meant that he thinks he's somehow cajoled unsuspecting hosts into handing over the goods to him year after year. These same people were probably laughing at him behind his back every time. People who try to give the impression that most hosts and casino managers are clueless only do so because they have a serious, hidden deficiency in strength of conviction. The same can be said about his propensity to write about sexual situations so often. Just remember to bring along the anti-bacterial wipes the next time you think you'll be playing one of the machines he's pushed the buttons on.