Tipping discussion MOVED HERE

[spojoey]

At Rincon I only play 25 cent VP,
99 % of my royals are $1000 hand pays. They always give me ten $100 dollar bills. Why do they do that? I'm darn sure not giving them one as a tip.

[Alan Mendelson]

spojoey, the floor people at Rincon don't expect tips on $1,000 pays and they are slowly removing those $1,000 handpay machines. I've hit AAAA on their Royal Aces Bonus 25-cent machine several times this year and one of the two machines has a hand pay. Always I was given $100 bills and no one stands around for a handpay. I think the floor people are bothered by the $1,000 handpays as much as the players are.

[Rob.Singer]

Some linger and some don't. What most of you folks are missing in all this is there is no viable reason or even one with precedence inside or outside of casinos, why anyone should or would tip a casino slot attendant. It is a slimy casino practice perpetuated by a sudden appearance of a wad of cash that preys on the momentary euphoric feelings of its customers. And AP's who tip are simply contradicting what their casino existence is all about. They're always boasting about this % advantage and that % edge. Yet when the required jackpot hits come they give away part of their boast.

Think about it folks: If the attendants came over and just gave you a W2G along with a cash out ticket (like they did at the Monte Lago Casino on Lake Las Vegas) would you still be tipping them?

It is refreshing to have chimp actually be telling it like she sees it about what it's like after hitting a jackpot instead of all the cliche's we're reading about tipping.

[RS__]

And AP's who tip are simply contradicting what their casino existence is all about. They're always boasting about this % advantage and that % edge. Yet when the required jackpot hits come they give away part of their boast.

On most VP plays, I could tip 100% of the jackpot amount and still have a huge advantage. Of course, I don't over-tip. Usually round to the nearest thousand and give 1% of that.

Rob, I know you're unable to comprehend math...so I'll post this to others who think tipping destroys their advantage. 9/6 JOB has a return of 99.54%. The royal returns about 1.98% overall, let's just call it 2% to make it easy. If an AP, or any player for that matter, tipped 10% of the RF to the slot attendant, the royal would then return 1.8% (90% of 2% is 1.8%....or 0.02 * 0.9 = 0.018). In other words, you're losing 0.2% of your overall return if you tip a [massive] 10% of the handpay. Your new return is now approx. 99.34%. If that extra 0.2% causes you to have problems...you're in the wrong business. Of course, this only takes into account handpays on royal flushes. If you're playing high denoms or games where handpays are frequent (10/6 DB, $10 JOB, $5 DDB, any $50 or $100 denom), then it probably makes better sense to tip at the end of the session and/or ask for key-to-credit.

[jbjb]

For the record, I don't tip slot personnel. And I very rarely tip dealers.

[Chimp]

As Dan and Rob said, a lot of the problem is the precedents already set. In the past few months I noticed a few tipping situations that I had never seen before. I saw a lady tip an attendant for unlocking a machine that had been capped for her. And then I saw a man tip the cleaning lady whe she cleared some trash from his area. My first thought on both was "oh, should I be tipping for those services?" But then my brain said don't, because you'll just be setting a precedent and feel like you have to tip for those every time. I did not get the impression that either the attendant or cleaning lady expected to be tipped.

But I did see an unbelievably blatant move for a tip. A friend of mine had told me the story of how she had asked to be walked to her car one night by a security officer. She thanked him a gave him a few bucks. And then whenever she was at the casino this same officer started hanging around, offering to get her some water, etc. He was really bugging her by always hovering and trying to chit-chat and she eventually realized that he was fishing for tips. She was able to get rid of him by basically ignoring him every time he came around. And then he latched onto me with hovering around and offering water and whatever and I had to ignore him also to get rid of him.
So one day I noticed him talking to some people a few machines down from me. They were being friendly enough but I don't think they were initiating any of the conversation. And he seemed to be hovering in an unnatural way. Then he leaves and comes back with a few bottles of water. I was thinking what is a security guard doing spending his time talking and getting water for customers. Doesn't he have anything better to do regarding security? They thanked him and went back to playing their machines and talking to each other. Then he stood there for almost a minute before leaving, with none of them talking to him, and I realized that it was all about getting a tip. Fortunately they did not tip him.

[Dan Druff]

Here is an interesting tipping story, and it shines a lot upon the entitled attitude of some who work for tips.

Keep in mind that I am not saying that ALL people who work for tips are bad or entitled. I am just saying that I have witnessed certain attitudes which are far from justified.

Anyway, around 2007, a young guy won a big poker tournament for like $1.2 million. In poker, the "customary" tip for the dealers is about 3% of what you cashed -- unless a tip is already taken out of the prize pool (as it often is, including at the WSOP).

Anyway, at this particular event (which was NOT a WSOP event, btw), they already took 3% out of the prizepool for the dealers. So the kid had already been forced to tip. His $1.2 million was the amount he took home AFTER the 3% was taken out.

Following so far?

Good.

Okay, so when the kid went to get his winnings processed, he was asked, "Do you want to leave any tips for the dealers and staff?" This was already a misleading and loaded question, because they hope that you don't realize that you already tipped 3% when they ask you that. Fortunately, this kid asked if he had already tipped, and he was told that, yes, he tipped 3% as part of the auto-tip.

At this point, he felt kinda strange and awkward. On one hand, he felt like a cheapskate for walking out with $1.2 million and not throwing something extra on top of the 3% already taken out of his prize for a tip. On the other hand, he realized that he already tipped $36,000 through the auto-tip, and didn't feel the need to heap something big on top of that. So rather than feel like a jerk by saying, "No", he instead answered, "Yeah, take out another $1,000 and give that to the dealers, too."

Well, some asshole leaked this on the 2+2 poker forums. The person who leaked it didn't bother mentioning that the kid had already auto-tipped $36,000, and just said that he "tipped $1,000 on a $1.2 million win", and there were 20 or so pages of people jumping on him and calling him the worst names imaginable.

Finally someone pointed out the auto-tip situation. Very few people retracted their venomous statements! In fact, they continued to pile on, calling his addition of $1,000 to a $36,000 auto-tip an "insult", and continued to lambaste him for his selfishness.

I felt so bad for him. He tried to do a little extra to be nice, and not only was his privacy violated, but he was attacked for trying to give a little bit extra.

Ironically, those who had left NOTHING above the auto-tip were never bashed. It was because he left $1,000 on top that made him look like a jerk.

Amazing.

[Dan Druff]

Here is another tipping story, related to blackjack.

About 8 years ago, I visited the shithole known as Arizona Charlies in Vegas. I came with a friend who loved the place for whatever reason. He was what I call a pseudo-card-counter. He understood the basic principle behind counting, but he didn't know the strategy adjustments, nor did he always keep an accurate count. He just knew to bet big when a lot of small cards are out, and bet smaller when a lot of big cards are out.

Anyway, we were playing at a double deck table, and the dealer was a surly white guy around 60 years old. My friend was making dumb conversation like, "All right! You gonna give us good cards? You gonna make a winner out of us?" I think he was trying to make us not look like counters, but he was too over-the-top with it. Anyway, the dealer mistook this for my friend being superstitious.

"If you take care of me, I'll take care of you," the dealer replied.

I already didn't like that. Blackjack dealers should never suggest tips.

We continued playing. I was hoping that perhaps the dealer meant that he would "take care of us" by dealing further in the deck than normal (a big edge for double-deck counters), but as I suspected, that wasn't what he meant. Despite my friend dutifully tipping him every hand, he reshuffled at the exact expected point. I didn't tip at all, having already been put off by the guy's initial statement.

When my friend got dealt a blackjack, the dealer announced, "See! Look at that! You took care of me, and I took care of you! Keep doing it, and there will be more where that came from!"

Now it was 100% obvious that the dealer wasn't offering to do any "favors" for tips, but was just spouting off nonsense to take advantage of what he thought was a superstitious moron.

My friend wasn't a superstitious moron, but he also thought that he had to go along with whatever the dealer asked, and that it would somehow lead to rewards down the road. He wasn't getting it.

It got worse. I still refused to tip a single penny. My friend got dealt a 20 which held against the dealer's hand, while I got dealt a 14 and busted.

"See? You took care of me. Look what happened again. This guy here (pointing to me), he didn't, you see what happened."

I was about to really go off on him, but I restrained myself, because I knew this was my friend's "place" and I didn't want to be the one responsible for getting both of us 86'd.

We played about 15-20 more minutes. The dealer was getting progressively more obnoxious, to the point where he was actually rooting for me to lose. It took every ounce of internal strength to keep my mouth shut, aside from some calm statements like, "Oh come on, that's not very nice to root for me to lose..."

Finally I couldn't stand it anymore and quit. My friend followed me out. I told him he was being a complete moron for tipping this asshole, to which he replied, "Hey, I don't know, I'm not the blackjack guy like you are. I thought that's what we're supposed to do when the dealer said he was taking care of us!"

Terrible.

[redietz]

That story just moved me a little further towards the Rob end of the continuum. If I won a bundle at a WSOP event, I would specifically contact the IRS and force the dealers who shared that mandatory 36K tip to pay taxes on it.

"Mandatory tip" is, in my book, an oxymoron. It's a fee, not a tip.

[Rob.Singer]

The way of the world Dan. And that's what usually happens to weak people who feel tipping pressure.

I expected some sort of amusing, meaningless tipping-justification post by the amateur in life RS__. Now he has not 10%, not 17%....but 100% edges! What an idiot. And he digs his hole further by trying to rationalize smaller tipping. Gee, too bad his amazing theoretical "edges" are never guaranteed. Even then, his math wouldn't make sense.

Try again....and wise up.

[Dan Druff]

One final obnoxious-dealer-asking-for-tips story.

Used to play blackjack at Bellagio. I don't anymore (or at any CET or MGM properties), because I don't want to get barred from them. It's not worth it.

Anyway, I ran pretty bad overall at Bellagio in my blackjack play, so they still beat me overall despite my counting. But this was one of my good sessions...

I was betting $600 per hand because the count was fairly good. I think it was a $200 minimum table. I was playing two spots. Dealer was showing a 5. I got dealt 4-4 on one hand and 8-3 on the other. Played the 4-4 first, and split it. Another 4. Split it again. Another 4! This was getting expensive. Played out hand #1 and got dealt a 7, meaning it was time to double. Did that, drew a 3. Yuck. Played out other hands, and ended up with something like 16, 15, and 18. Again, yuck. Then played the other dealt hand (the 8-3), doubled it, and drew a 6 for 17.

So this left me with the following 5 hands, facing a dealer 5 upcard:
14 $1200
16 $600
15 $600
18 $600
17 $1200

So that's a total of $4200 -- by far the largest hand of blackjack I had ever played in my life (remains true to this day).

I wasn't thrilled when the dealer turned over an 8 for a total of 13, meaning it was plenty flexible to crush me. Then came the beautiful 9, and I won every spot.

Dealer slid $4200 over to me, and I was ecstatic.

There was one other player with me, a stranger who had been at the table about 5 minutes. He remarked, "Wow!! That was huge! You should tip the dealer big for that one!"

Before I could say anything or make a motion to tip her (and I was about to do so), she snapped, "Yeah, he SHOULD tip me big for that one. I don't know if he will, but he should!"

I chose to tip her exactly $0, thanks to that comment.

Keep in mind that dealers at Bellagio were making like $100k per year at the time.

[Dan Druff]

That story just moved me a little further towards the Rob end of the continuum. If I won a bundle at a WSOP event, I would specifically contact the IRS and force the dealers who shared that mandatory 36K tip to pay taxes on it.

"Mandatory tip" is, in my book, an oxymoron. It's a fee, not a tip.

You don't have to. The IRS is informed about it by the casino. It's equivalent to tipping a server at a restaurant via your credit card, where the restaurant reports it as income.

[RS__]

The way of the world Dan. And that's what usually happens to weak people who feel tipping pressure.

I expected some sort of amusing, meaningless tipping-justification post by the amateur in life RS__. Now he has not 10%, not 17%....but 100% edges! What an idiot. And he digs his hole further by trying to rationalize smaller tipping. Gee, too bad his amazing theoretical "edges" are never guaranteed. Even then, his math wouldn't make sense.

Try again....and wise up.

When did I say I had a 100% edge? All I said was I could tip the entire jackpot amount and still have a big edge, because the RF only accounts for ~2% of the return/edge.

[Alan Mendelson]

If an AP, or any player for that matter, tipped 10% of the RF to the slot attendant, the royal would then return 1.8% (90% of 2% is 1.8%....or 0.02 * 0.9 = 0.018). In other words, you're losing 0.2% of your overall return if you tip a [massive] 10% of the handpay. Your new return is now approx. 99.34%. If that extra 0.2% causes you to have problems...you're in the wrong business. Of course, this only takes into account handpays on royal flushes.

I'm having a problem understanding this. Let's take my $100,000 royal for example. If I gave a tip of 10% which would have been $10,000 that would have been half of a $5 royal and in some cases could tip the scales between a profitable year and a losing year.

My point is while "percentages" might look small, the actual dollar value can be huge.

[Rob.Singer]

More meaningless theory, no matter which side of your mouth it comes out of.

So tell us, when Alan hit that $100k royal and if he tipped the entire jackpot, exactly HOW MUCH of the return would he have parted with?

Again, wise up.

[Dan Druff]

RS__ is trying to say that his VP edge is so large (greater than 2%) that he is an expected winner even without hitting a single royal.

That's what he meant by "tipping 100% of my royal".

I'm having a real hard time believing any such play (2% or more edge in VP) exists today.

[jbjb]

Playing off multipliers like I do gives me wayyyyyyyy more than a 2% edge. You just need a great location and no competition like I have. Vegas isn't the place for it. Even I doubt you'll find a stand alone game with a 2% edge though.

But back to tipping, I completely agree with Rob on it.

[RS__]

I'm having a problem understanding this. Let's take my $100,000 royal for example. If I gave a tip of 10% which would have been $10,000 that would have been half of a $5 royal and in some cases could tip the scales between a profitable year and a losing year.

My point is while "percentages" might look small, the actual dollar value can be huge.

And hitting a royal for $100k is huge. If you had a 7% edge and typically played $25 denom, your EV would be about $7k-9k an hour. Granted, you're probably not going to find that at such high stakes.

If 10% of a royal is the difference between a profitable year and a negative year....I'm not really sure what to say.

Rob, Alan is not playing with an advantage. I'm not really sure what you're even trying to get at.

[Alan Mendelson]

I never said I was playing with an advantage. I am playing negative expectation games with the house having an edge, generally, of 0.8% less what minimal free play I get. I don't include comps, offers, etc because they are outside of gaming. Free play I will count as helping to increase my edge but I count it with strict limitations and never dollar-for-dollar.

So since the house has an edge of about 0.8% over me, I can honestly say that $10,000 (10% of a $100K royal) will make the difference between a profitable and a negative year. In fact, 10% of a $20,000 royal can also be the difference.

Regardless of whether or not 10% of a royal makes a difference between a winning or losing year, who in their right mind is going to tip 10% ????

[RS__]

Regardless of whether or not 10% of a royal makes a difference between a winning or losing year, who in their right mind is going to tip 10% ????

I agree -- you shouldn't tip 10%. The purpose of my post was to illustrate the fact that you can tip a HUGE amount (10% of RF) and only lose a small amount on your return (lowers return by 0.2%). Not that you should tip that much, of course.

But when people get all pissy about tipping $100 for a $20K jackpot or $500 for a $100K jackpot.....I think it's completely ridiculous to claim tipping those amounts is somehow over-the-top or eats into your play too much. Tipping that much (or that little) is really only 4 wagers.