The Forum Quandary

[RS__]

The info you provide (particularly, team type play) doesn't point to you having very much money, so the strategy would be out of your reach anyway. That's why you make up all this stuff about "fantastic edges" and "super secret plays" that you're only allowed to "tease" about. It's story-telling right out of the Wizard's forum at it's finest.

BTW, one thing I found out about "team" players like Frank Kneeland, Tom Robertson, etc., is that on top of them not having any retirement to look forward to, all they have in real time is money problems with other gamblers. Quite the slug-life.

Team play is NOT 100% because of money. There are many factors as to why being on a team is good, mostly because you share information with each other. If I know of a good play in Washington and another one in Arizona that are happening at the same time, I can't take advantage of both. And if I don't know of any good plays to do right now, then I can't take advantage of anything. But if I'm teamed up with 2 or 3 other guys, sometimes I'll be providing more information so that I can go play in WA and someone else go play in AZ. Once those plays finish, I may not discover anything, while a teammate discovers something. Also, many plays (particularly HCing) require more than one person at a time to play properly. And of course, part of it is due to money as well. If I have a $50K bankroll, perhaps I can safely wager $500 a hand in game X, and make $1000/hour. If I teamed up with 3 other guys who each have a $50K bankroll, now I can play as if I had a $200K bankroll, and so can they. So now we can each wager $2000 a hand in game X and make $4000/hour.

There are things I've discovered and brought to my team and we've all made money on it. There are things they've brought to the table and we've all made money on it. If I wasn't part of the team, the others would not have made as much money (because they would not have been playing it / having action on the play)...and I wouldn't have made as much money either, because I wouldn't have been able to play it properly without others helping.

When you think about it, quitting when ahead is a true positive expectation strategy. You can never lose money if you always quit a session when showing a profit.

Once again ask yourself: in what percentage of the DAYS that I gambled was I ahead by at least one bet? (Of course if you are making only a single bet or a small number of bets such as in sports or poker tournament this will not apply.) I think that almost every video poker or craps player or blackjack player can say that at some point they were ahead a large percentage of gambling days. I know I have.

But you'll have that rare session where you will NEVER be ahead at any point.

Alan, if you truly believe that quitting when ahead is positive expectation, then try this:
- Go to the casino, pick your game and start playing. As soon as you're ahead by any amount, cash out.
- Go to cashier/ATM machine, cash out the voucher.
- Take a lap around the parking lot [this is not necessary, actually].
- Sit back down at your machine and start a new session.
- Rinse, wash, repeat.

I hope you can see, you're not going to win money in the long term doing this. You may as well just sit at the machine and play for as many hours as you can, because both are the same thing. I don't actually advise you to do this.

[Alan Mendelson]

I don't know if "rinse, wash, repeat" will necessarily work. My experience has been (with only two exceptions) that I will have one big winner per session. That big winner might be quad aces or it might be a royal. Or it might be a couple of quads that come quickly.

Only twice in more than 15 years of playing video poker have I hit two royals in the same weekend -- and never have I hit two royals in the same day.

THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT about playing with win goals is to also have a LOSS LIMIT. It makes no sense to leave with a win goal if on other visits you let yourself lose too much money.

[Alan Mendelson]

I want to tell you why I turned very sour on "team play."

Frank Kneeland, who was perhaps the poster boy for team play, admitted to me and to Jason when we took him for lunch at Caesars, that he never played with his own money. Jason and I looked at each other in disbelief and shock, and questioned Frank about that. He told us he would never gamble with his own money, and he wouldn't play unless he was using someone else's money. And this was the poster boy for team play? This was the renowned author for team play strategy?

After I posted what Frank told me and it was questioned on various forums (he let the cat out of the bag at our lunch) he willingly admitted it to the world. That's when Rob found out about it and Rob and I in a phone conversation both expressed our shock. That's when my BS meter broke -- it was a magnitude 20 on an earthquake scale that maxed out at 10.

[RS__]

I want to tell you why I turned very sour on "team play."

Frank Kneeland, who was perhaps the poster boy for team play, admitted to me and to Jason when we took him for lunch at Caesars, that he never played with his own money. Jason and I looked at each other in disbelief and shock, and questioned Frank about that. He told us he would never gamble with his own money, and he wouldn't play unless he was using someone else's money. And this was the poster boy for team play? This was the renowned author for team play strategy?

After I posted what Frank told me and it was questioned on various forums (he let the cat out of the bag at our lunch) he willingly admitted it to the world. That's when Rob found out about it and Rob and I in a phone conversation both expressed our shock. That's when my BS meter broke -- it was a magnitude 20 on an earthquake scale that maxed out at 10.

I guess your experience (through Frank) is significantly different than my experience, regarding team play. I've almost always used my own money when playing, either it being 100% my own money, or pooled with others (and of course, I'd get a fair cut of the win/loss). I have very occasionally played using only someone else's money where it wouldn't matter to me if I won or lost, because I'd be getting paid the same amount regardless of a win or loss.

[Alan Mendelson]

Frank said something about being paid an hourly rate plus a bonus if the team hit the big royal. He also said something about playing slot progressives but that was in a conversation at our lunch and I don't think he posted about that much publicly.

[arcimede$]

Tell us, Alan, what part of Frank's play tells us anything at all about VP math? From what I could gather he simply found people were willing to pay him for doing what he would have done otherwise. This probably reduced his overall profits but eliminated the risk. A simple trade-off. Why you thought this was meaningful is beyond me. People do this all the time in other areas. The ones that take the risks are called entrepreneurs. They are also the ones that often get filthy rich.

[arcimede$]

When you think about it, quitting when ahead is a true positive expectation strategy. You can never lose money if you always quit a session when showing a profit.

Once again ask yourself: in what percentage of the DAYS that I gambled was I ahead by at least one bet? (Of course if you are making only a single bet or a small number of bets such as in sports or poker tournament this will not apply.) I think that almost every video poker or craps player or blackjack player can say that at some point they were ahead a large percentage of gambling days. I know I have.

Alan, we went through this before. I explained that you will win up to 95% of the time with this strategy but still lose on negative games. I even built a simulation and produced the actual numbers. Now, here you are again repeating this still drivel that only makes it obvious you are a poor thinker.

[Alan Mendelson]

Arc I answered this in the thread about quitting when ahead.

[arcimede$]

Arc I answered this in the thread about quitting when ahead.

No Alan, all you did is repeat the same illogical buffoonery.

[jbjb]

I dont use team play for vp. My vp play is very few and far between. Team play on blackjack or carnival poker based card games is absolutely necessary to avoid or severely limit detection. The fact that none of you are table games players shows me that none of you understand that.

[Rob.Singer]

I dont use team play for vp. My vp play is very few and far between. Team play on blackjack or carnival poker based card games is absolutely necessary to avoid or severely limit detection. The fact that none of you are table games players shows me that none of you understand that.

That says it all right there, only you don't see that it cuts both ways. I among others here have little knowledge of what team entails, aside from it not being for me because I have the money to go it alone.

OTOH, you have basically zero knowledge of how I do what I do, yet you want to sound like an authority by criticizing it. I hope you finally see why your overall credibility is of little value here. And making up silly claims while hiding your identity as well as any supporting information about it hasn't helped your image.

[Rob.Singer]

I guess your experience (through Frank) is significantly different than my experience, regarding team play. I've almost always used my own money when playing, either it being 100% my own money, or pooled with others (and of course, I'd get a fair cut of the win/loss). I have very occasionally played using only someone else's money where it wouldn't matter to me if I won or lost, because I'd be getting paid the same amount regardless of a win or loss.

You need to read Frank's book. He's been acclaimed as being the #1 authority on team play. If you're doing things differently than him then you have a lot to learn.

There's three distinct reasons why anyone would want to be involved in such a dumb aspect of gambling. First, the feel-good/self-confidence building excuse you mentioned of not being able to be at two places at once. You claim that you could "make X amount per hour here and Y amount per hour there" only you make ZERO PER HOUR if the team fails to hit the royal. No theory--just reality.

Secondly, you people all do this because you can't afford to go it alone, and if you can't afford something you shouldn't be doing it. As I said, you people are gamblers, and gamblers get into it with each other over money all the time. Ask Tom Robertson....and Frank if he's still alive. Third, most casinos do not allow team vp play any longer. I suspect that's why you make up so many stories that just can't be identified or explained past the "trust me" phase. You live in a world of theory, so much so that when you theorize about gambling "opportunities" you create a partial, real live story about it. Kinda like all the phony stories that mickeycrimm comes up with.

[RS__]

You need to read Frank's book. He's been acclaimed as being the #1 authority on team play. If you're doing things differently than him then you have a lot to learn.

There's three distinct reasons why anyone would want to be involved in such a dumb aspect of gambling. First, the feel-good/self-confidence building excuse you mentioned of not being able to be at two places at once. You claim that you could "make X amount per hour here and Y amount per hour there" only you make ZERO PER HOUR if the team fails to hit the royal. No theory--just reality.

Secondly, you people all do this because you can't afford to go it alone, and if you can't afford something you shouldn't be doing it. As I said, you people are gamblers, and gamblers get into it with each other over money all the time. Ask Tom Robertson....and Frank if he's still alive. Third, most casinos do not allow team vp play any longer. I suspect that's why you make up so many stories that just can't be identified or explained past the "trust me" phase. You live in a world of theory, so much so that when you theorize about gambling "opportunities" you create a partial, real live story about it. Kinda like all the phony stories that mickeycrimm comes up with.

Excellent post Rob. Your posts are always a hoot to read!

[jbjb]

Excellent post Rob. Your posts are always a hoot to read!

Agreed. Just shows how illiterate he is. I've said many times that we use team play on tables to avoid detection. And it actually nets us MORE money than a lone wolf player. I guess Bob Nersesian is a phoney too.

[Alan Mendelson]

I don't think there's anything wrong with team play. I just think it's ironic that the great expert on team play never used his own money and said he wouldn't.

[Rob.Singer]

Agreed. Just shows how illiterate he is. I've said many times that we use team play on tables to avoid detection. And it actually nets us MORE money than a lone wolf player. I guess Bob Nersesian is a phoney too.

Right. You want to "avoid detection" at table games, then you want to come on here and constantly talk about winning by doing it without any type of info, support, or proof, and then you get irritated when people ask you questions about it in order to help with your credibility. And this has to be a dream tag-line: "it actually nets us MORE money than a lone wolf player". So here's some more tough questions: how, and why?

[RS__]

Right. You want to "avoid detection" at table games, then you want to come on here and constantly talk about winning by doing it without any type of info, support, or proof, and then you get irritated when people ask you questions about it in order to help with your credibility. And this has to be a dream tag-line: "it actually nets us MORE money than a lone wolf player". So here's some more tough questions: how, and why?

Try reading my posts above. You might actually learn something.

[Rob.Singer]

You have yet to answer one question with a real answer. It's always a convoluted array of guessing games and unobtainable clearances required first.

Wise up.

[RS__]

The only question(s) you wrote are "how and why?"

[OneHitWonder]

How many AP's does it take to screw in a light bulb? One to call himself Wizard, and another 20 cheerleaders - aka dealers, consultants, game inventors and other lottery-type gullibles - to keep it up with the not-so-bright ideas.

Pro-gambling (AP ads and infomercials for online casinos) isn't quite the same as professional gambling, but at least it's the lowest form of living.