CET host questions

[Dan Druff]

The answer is multi-layered but very simple: I play for the money and not the comps. Hosts, regardless how anyone here might be duped by them, are not the player's friends. They have one agenda with their voice and an entirely different one going on in their mind. I'm not believing that any player is ever "overcomped". No one would ever have even the slightest idea on that enuf to proclaim it. And I know gamblers well enough to understand that they will say anything that makes them feel like they're "winning" or getting the better of the casinos.

But you're not correct by saying I don't like the way Dan squeezes them. On the contrary, being someone who likes to see casinos lose their butts, I wish everyone always took advantage of everything their benefits offer. The only criticism I might have of Dan is in his approach & control method. I disagree with how hot-headed he gets over 20 bucks since he's seen some healthy 6-figures in the gambling arena before. It's like penny-pinching, and that tends to control a person in everything they do, which is nowhere near healthy for anyone. Whenever I get "cheated" or taken advantage of financially, I look at it as how important it is in the overall scheme of life and proceed from there. Too many times I've seen Dan hurting enormously over basic peanuts, and that will get the best of him before he gets to retirement age. It's just advice.

Rob, we agree about hosts. No point to lecture about that. I always state that hosts have one purpose and one purpose only -- to get you to play -EV games, and to make commission off that play.

But if I'm understanding your message above correctly, you DO approve of what I do regarding earning Seven Stars and maximizing the benefits.

Your only criticism of me seems to be the fact that I expend energy to complain about small billing errors and minor/moderate customer service issues, right?

Okay, I can respect that part. I realize that my "never get screwed, no matter how small" approach isn't for everyone. I pursue matters like $20 errors because it actually stresses me out more NOT to pursue them. I hate feeling like a company got extra money from me just because they made a mistake and I was too lazy to fight for the correction. At the same time, I can understand those who would prefer to dismiss small errors, seeing them as not worth the time, trouble, and stress.

But these are really two different things. My pressing on customer service matters has nothing to do with earning Seven Stars and utilizing its benefits.

Also, I am not just someone who plays for comps. If I only played for comps, I wouldn't care about the paytables I play. On the contrary, I play the highest return machines possible, because I both want to win AND earn the Seven Stars status. I realize that with the machines all being -EV, I am more likely to lose than win, but I want to give myself the highest chance possible to win. Fortunately, I did win in 2015 in my pursuit for Seven Stars, thanks to the six royals I hit at Rincon during that March trip. I lost in 2013, though.

I am not someone who will ever quit video poker because I'm winning or losing during the session. If I'm going to return later and play again, quitting is meaningless. I know we disagree on that, but the math backs me up. So if I commit to play 5000 tier credits in a day, I will play those 5000 tier credits, no matter how well or poorly I'm doing. I will sometimes take breaks during the session if things aren't going well, just for psychological reasons.

On the other hand, I will quit a regular poker session sometimes if I am doing really poorly. That's because poker opponents are human beings who adjust their play based upon what they see, and if they see an opponent losing over and over, they smell weakness and will often attempt to "pick on you", which actually makes it harder to play against them. Furthermore, you need confidence at the poker table, and it's hard to have that confidence when you've lost 19 of the past 21 hands you played. So with poker, there is merit in quitting when way ahead or behind (especially behind).

With VP, there is no merit in quitting early, if you plan to return later and play again anyway.

[Alan Mendelson]

Dan thanks for your explanation about why you think you're over comped. I still disagree. I'll stick with my view that you are maximizing your available comps and when hosts tell you that you are over comped it's a euphemistic term for they don't want to deal with you.

When I have $20 errors like being charged for movies I simply call and simply say I'm Seven Stars and the charges are removed.

I personally can never intentionally play with the goal of reaching 5,000 tier points in a day. If I'm having a bad day and not hitting I will leave -- the casino will be there another day. It's no fun playing for points when losing. If being stuck in a game losing money to get 5,000 points is what being an AP is all about -- I want no part of it. I want to have fun and enjoy myself. It sounds like being an AP is a miserable way to be in a fun place like a casino resort with great shows and restaurants and entertainment and never ending hot showers and room service and housekeeping.

This AP stuff sounds like agony.

By the way my host knows nothing about craps and video poker and never did anything to promote my play. She's there to get me my reservations and tickets and to send me goodies to the room if I'm not feeling well.

[Dan Druff]

It isn't agony at all.

I can stay for free for 5 days straight in any CET property, eat whatever food I want for free (since I have so many RCs), and never feel pressured to gamble when I don't want to. I can go the whole year without putting a penny in a machine, if I want.

I don't mind playing through 5000 credits in a day if I'm not doing well, because I don't believe in any of the nonsense that quitting when experiencing bad luck changes anything.

I also can play knowing that, barring a horrible run of luck, I will recoup all or most losses via the benefits I earn. And sometimes, like this year, I actually win.

No, my methods aren't good if you are a VP action junkie, but that's not me. I get enough action from poker.

[Alan Mendelson]

I don't mind playing through 5000 credits in a day if I'm not doing well, because I don't believe in any of the nonsense that quitting when experiencing bad luck changes anything.

When you are facing bad luck and aren't winning and you decide to quit before earning your 5,000 "points" here's what it changes: the amount of money you keep in your checking account.

Dan you can't even use the argument that you are playing +EV machines at any Caesars property.

[Rob.Singer]

Yes Dan, I like how you take as much as you can from CET benefits whether you win or lose playing vp in order to be 7-Stars. And I hope someday you become comfortable with not sweating the small stuff any more. But on the "overcomped" issue I'm with Alan.

[redietz]

I'm completely with Dan on everything he stated. If you're going to (eventually) play the number of hands anyway, and there are benefits to playing them in a block of a certain number of hours, I would play the block. That's a no-brainer.

If I had to massage and spin my psyche depending on being ahead or behind, I'd save myself the grief and not gamble at all. All the fun things Alan mentioned at casinos can be had sans gambling, anyway.

[Alan Mendelson]

All the fun things Alan mentioned at casinos can be had sans gambling, anyway.

Exactly right. So why gamble when you are losing? Why keep gambling when losing just to get 5,000 tier points? What fun is it to lose?

[Dan Druff]

Exactly right. So why gamble when you are losing? Why keep gambling when losing just to get 5,000 tier points? What fun is it to lose?

Because I don't feel any better by artificially splitting up that 5,000 tier points into various smaller sessions. In fact, I would feel worse, because I wouldn't get the optimal number of bonus tiers by playing fewer than 5,000 (unless I did exactly 2,500).

See, I already have it etched in my brain that I will be playing ten days of 5,000 tier credits each.

The good thing about this is that I know my losses are limited, even in the event of very bad luck. I also know that I will recoup some or all of those losses through the benefits I will have earned (which I actually have a real-life use for).

The fun in the whole thing is the excitement of the possibility of also winning money on the way to getting to Seven Stars, which indeed I managed in 2015.

It is also fun to know that I have achieved Seven Stars through the least expensive path, and that I am beating the casinos at their own game, while still playing strictly within the rules.

You know what would not be fun for me? A slow, steady march to losing, playing -EV games over and over, knowing that I am highly unlikely to beat the mathematics which give the casino an edge.

In fact, this "-EV march to losing" is why I finally decided 15 years ago that enough was enough, and that I was going to learn how to count cards in blackjack. I returned to Vegas in October 2000 as an advantage player for the first time in my life, and I can tell you that it felt great.

I have since retired from playing blackjack for the most part, as I don't want to be kicked out of the major properties for counting cards, and I don't feel like putting the effort into visiting the smaller properties which still have good games.

But I remember losing during a trip in July, 2000, and decided that I was done forever playing -EV games without some kind of edge.

On a side note, that particular July, 2000 trip almost cost me over $1,000,000 in a contest I could have won at home.

[Alan Mendelson]

See, I already have it etched in my brain that I will be playing ten days of 5,000 tier credits each.

I thought the first rule of smart casino play was DO NOT PLAY FOR COMPS but isn't that what you are doing?

Is being a 7 Stars player at Caesars that important to you?

The good thing about this is that I know my losses are limited, even in the event of very bad luck. I also know that I will recoup some or all of those losses through the benefits I will have earned (which I actually have a real-life use for).

I hope your "math" is correct about the value of the comps/benefits vs your actual out of pocket costs. If they are then good for you.

It is possible they are for you Dan because you are a professional poker player and you spend a lot of time in Vegas playing poker. But I wonder if it's the same for non-professional gamblers?

My point is that a lot of people will read this -- not just "advantage players" and professional gamblers -- and they should understand that what might work for an advantage player (AP) or a professional gambler is not necessarily good advice for them (recreational players).

[redietz]

You're right, Alan. What might work for a winner won't necessarily work for a loser.

I've never understood why one would want to be a "recreational player," but then there are many things I do not understand. "Recreational player" is really a euphemism for "loser."

To enjoy the shows, food, architecture, and ambiance of Las Vegas, one need not donate material resources at negative EV games.

[Dan Druff]

You should not "play for comps" if you do so in the conventional fashion. That is, whatever comps your host gives you (or even the offers generated by computer) will not come close to the theoretical losses you will be up against in the games themselves. So the whole thing is a losing proposition.

However, if you find a way to play for comps where the expected comps EXCEED the amount of expected loss, then it is smart to play for comps -- provided those comps are actually valuable to you.

Yes, being a Seven Stars is important to me, and I derive a number of benefits from it.

I have even built one-way road trips around the various annual trips that I get as a Seven Stars benefit.

One was to the northeastern US (via Atlantic City), one was to Detroit/Niagara Falls/Toronto (via Windsor), one was to New Orleans & Miami (via New Orleans), and next year I will be doing one to North Carolina, Atlanta, and the surrounding areas (via Harrah's Cherokee in NC).

I redeem every single Seven Stars benefit, PLUS stay in the hotels fairly often (especially during WSOP). This year I haven't used the hotel benefit all that much though, outside of WSOP where I used it for like 24 days. But I've still used it plenty on an absolute basis,

I did skip the signature event this year, because I thought it was crappy and not worth bothering with.

[Alan Mendelson]

You're right, Alan. What might work for a winner won't necessarily work for a loser.

I've never understood why one would want to be a "recreational player," but then there are many things I do not understand. "Recreational player" is really a euphemism for "loser."

To enjoy the shows, food, architecture, and ambiance of Las Vegas, one need not donate material resources at negative EV games.

You're too critical. There are many people who go to a casino with an entertainment budget. Remember the surveys: the average "gambler" going to Vegas has a gaming budget of about $200.

I wouldn't call them losers. I think they're having fun at the slots or maybe throwing dice a little at a $10 or $5 game before or after a dinner and a show.

[Rob.Singer]

I'm a recreational player redietz. I haven't lost as one. Is it required and am I missing something?

[Alan Mendelson]

I'm a recreational player redietz. I haven't lost as one. Is it required and am I missing something?

Good point Rob. And I see RPs (recreational players) hit winners and take their profits and go home.