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Thread: Who Gets Banned from Casinos?

  1. #1
    In another thread on another topic Dan raised a good question about who gets banned from casinos and does that give support to what "systems" or methods actually work in beating the casinos. Here is what he wrote:

    Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Has anyone ever been banned from a casino for money management at VP, or using VP special plays?

    I'm pretty sure the answer is NO.

    So I'm wondering why that is, given modern casinos' ability to track play. Why would they want someone playing there who routinely comes in and beats them year after year?

    Anyone want to take a crack at this?

    APs get banned all the time, so at the very least, this is proof of concept regarding their edge over the casinos.
    I actually raised this question as it relates to winning at video poker with some casino managers -- and they were very high level managers.

    What they told me is that yes, they can ban a player who wins too much at video poker, and they do restrict offers to players who win too much. But can they actually pin point which video poker player is "lucky" and which video poker is playing with an advantage over the casino? The answer to that is no.

    In blackjack an advantage player increases his bet when the count is in his favor. In video poker the denomination of the game doesn't change nor does the amount of the max bet.

    In video poker, casinos can stop teams from dominating games so you can say that in the case of teams casinos do recognize a threat.

    Specifically Dan asks about money management and "special plays" which I am sure is a reference to Rob Singer's "special plays."

    As I said above, if you win too much you will lose your offers, and if you don't lose you might not get any offers. So yes Dan, I would say that money management and special plays would be noticed by the casino management. Perhaps the heat is way higher on card counters but if you win enough at video poker or craps or any other game the casinos will notice.

    Remember, three casinos gave me heat for winning at craps. One said I could no longer throw dice, a second took the dice away from me and told me to leave, and while I ran into a problem at the third casino their management later apologized to me and I have since returned to play there with no problem -- even though I've won a bit in recent trips.

  2. #2
    I have never heard of a video poker "money manager" or "special play utilizer" being banned from a casino.

    My point is that nobody consistently wins by doing such things. If they did, casinos wouldn't tolerate it. (Someone could get lucky for a year or two and fly under the radar, but if someone was a 10-year winner at VP, casinos would take notice!)

    The only person I've ever known to get banned for video poker play (aside from cheaters) was Richard "The Quiet Lion" Brodie (the inventor of Microsoft Word), who was banned from Caesars properties for playing perfect strategy on high limit 9-6 JoB machines.

    The rationale for banning him was that he was playing with positive expectation after comps were factored in.

    However, as Brodie was also a poker player, this also banned him from the World Series. He made a big deal about it, and the subsequent outrage from other poker players caused his ban to be lifted.
    Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com

  3. #3
    It was FPDW. There's a picture of his royal flush floating around somewhere. I believe it was a weird 3 credit machine.

    In fact, here...

    http://www.liontales.com/2007/06/fal...mpire.html?m=1

  4. #4
    This is a huge topic for another time (not an NFL Sunday), but let me mention something briefly.

    You don't have to "ban" someone to ban someone. In sports betting, books have the flexibility to put bet ceilings on people that can vary. For example, CET will look at your TR status, and if you're an idiot who's blown a lot of cash as a Seven Stars player, they will assign you higher limits than other people. Basically, sports books have the latitude to put you on a sliding scale regarding your betting limits.

    If you want to get higher limits, you've gotta do your best Gomer Pyle imitation.

    Anyway, it's a whole other topic, but keep it in mind.

  5. #5
    Basically like being flat bet in blackjack.

  6. #6
    I don't know much of anything about blackjack, jb, but that sounds ominous. You mean they can categorize you and put you on a flat bet limit at a table? That would drive away a professional pretty quickly.

    LOL -- I tried to bet a golf future once, and they allowed me to bet $1.40. As in one dollar and forty cents. I had almost forgotten about that.

  7. #7
    Brodie got banned from Caesar's, not because he was some "feared AP", but because he happened to hit several royals I think within a few hours' play of each other, on the 3-credit $100 FPDW machine. He said (and Caesar's confirmed this to me) he was banned because they couldn't figure out how to make a profit off of him. Not because he was some sort of poker-playing AP. This machine was just time-passing entertainment for him--a very wealthy guy. It's the same type of thing jbjb might do on the nickel games.

  8. #8
    More common sense: in addition what I said in the other thread, AP's are the #1 target of casinos when it comes to putting on lucrative promotions. They know these are the people who'll bring as much cash as possible from any means possible to play with a perceived edge during the promo. And this is what separates the sharpies from the flunkies: the casinos absolutely 100% are in their long term; the players are only in their casino for a very short term burst of play. Advantage: casinos. Every single time. How many times have we seen Dancer write about winning a car while losing more than it was worth. And those were only the times he felt like telling us, which always included references to how wealthy he says he is.

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    I don't know much of anything about blackjack, jb, but that sounds ominous. You mean they can categorize you and put you on a flat bet limit at a table? That would drive away a professional pretty quickly.

    LOL -- I tried to bet a golf future once, and they allowed me to bet $1.40. As in one dollar and forty cents. I had almost forgotten about that.
    Basically that's the point. They figure you'll leave on your own. It's what's called a "soft ban"

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Brodie got banned from Caesar's, not because he was some "feared AP", but because he happened to hit several royals I think within a few hours' play of each other, on the 3-credit $100 FPDW machine. He said (and Caesar's confirmed this to me) he was banned because they couldn't figure out how to make a profit off of him. Not because he was some sort of poker-playing AP. This machine was just time-passing entertainment for him--a very wealthy guy. It's the same type of thing jbjb might do on the nickel games.
    Yeah, I have no doubt he's not a casino AP.

    People DO get the boot for lifetime wins without being an AP.

  11. #11
    He very well may consider himself to be a casino AP, as do many, many players. But that's definitely not why he got the boot.

    I agree people do get banned. Get overly lucky and anyone can get that boot. The same goes for any machines they got too lucky on. Brodie's machine was terminated immediately after his 2nd royal.

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Brodie's machine was terminated immediately after his 2nd royal.
    If I recall, Brodie's machine was first installed at his request.

  13. #13
    With VP one of the ways to soft ban a player is to rescind player's club privileges. This has been done many times. I remember East Cannery doing this to many players a few years ago.

  14. #14
    It wasn't long after Greektown in Detroit opened up that they had a scandal about barring winning video poker players. There were lucrative promotions and some players consistently won. Greektown barred them. I think they were called the Greektown Nine. A few of them were members of the online forum vpFREE. It was a big story in the forum. But it was also a big story in the Detroit press. Greektown took a lof of bad press and lost a lot of business. So they unbarred the players involved. Then they put on a publicity campaign to get the business back. They admitted that the players involved were tossed for no other reason than that they were consistent winners but they said they learned their lesson. No more barring of players because they are winners.

  15. #15
    Google works wonders sometimes.

    https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...ers&gws_rd=ssl

    The best they ever offered is NSUD.
    Last edited by jbjb; 11-23-2015 at 12:32 PM.

  16. #16
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Brodie got banned from Caesar's, not because he was some "feared AP", but because he happened to hit several royals I think within a few hours' play of each other, on the 3-credit $100 FPDW machine. He said (and Caesar's confirmed this to me) he was banned because they couldn't figure out how to make a profit off of him. Not because he was some sort of poker-playing AP. This machine was just time-passing entertainment for him--a very wealthy guy. It's the same type of thing jbjb might do on the nickel games.
    Here's the canard, Singer. You were privy to them players getting 86'd but you yourself wasn't 86'd. How is that? Caesars confirmed all that to you? Why? Are you special privileged? You are the one that says you beat everybody everywhere. You must have been beating the hell out of Caesar's. Why were you not 86'd along with them? Why are you the only one who Caesar's couldn't make a profit off of who escaped all that 86'ing? Please explain.

  17. #17
    In reality, Rob Singer has reported average wins of $100,000 per year over a ten year span. Do you really think that would put him on some sort of hit list at any casino? Even if he won all $100,000 per year at one casino do you think any casino would really care?

    I've been at the craps tables at Caesars when players have colored up a hundred thousand dollars in a matter of two hours. I was also there when a Hollywood studio exec took a million dollars off of a craps table at Caesars, and when I asked a top exec about it he said to me "it happens all the time."

    No, Rob Singer would not get bounced for winning $100K a year. I don't think anyone would.

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    In reality, Rob Singer has reported average wins of $100,000 per year over a ten year span. Do you really think that would put him on some sort of hit list at any casino? Even if he won all $100,000 per year at one casino do you think any casino would really care?

    I've been at the craps tables at Caesars when players have colored up a hundred thousand dollars in a matter of two hours. I was also there when a Hollywood studio exec took a million dollars off of a craps table at Caesars, and when I asked a top exec about it he said to me "it happens all the time."

    No, Rob Singer would not get bounced for winning $100K a year. I don't think anyone would.
    Reality has nothing to do with it.

  19. #19
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    In reality, Rob Singer has reported average wins of $100,000 per year over a ten year span. Do you really think that would put him on some sort of hit list at any casino? Even if he won all $100,000 per year at one casino do you think any casino would really care?

    I've been at the craps tables at Caesars when players have colored up a hundred thousand dollars in a matter of two hours. I was also there when a Hollywood studio exec took a million dollars off of a craps table at Caesars, and when I asked a top exec about it he said to me "it happens all the time."

    No, Rob Singer would not get bounced for winning $100K a year. I don't think anyone would.
    Then why do card counters for winning a few measly hundred bucks?

  20. #20
    First, Brodie did request that machine. Caesar's didn't want to pass up his potential huge play so they put it in. In the end it didn't matter whether it was FPDW or 6/5 job--he hit two quick royals and the machine would have been gone either way. The same with him, for as long as it lasted.

    Mickey, why would I be banned when I wasn't playing there? Put down the sauce. And I was at Caesar's to interview them about this incident. Now take another gulp.

    After I got banned from Bellagio & Harrahs LV I stopped using my slot cards when playing SPS. I played at virtually all the major casinos from Laughlin to Wendover, and my relatively meager overall yearly winnings as Alan said were no big deal. My problem at Bellagio & Harrahs was that I had arrival dinners, hit winners fast, then left at both places multiple times.

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