Rob Singer: What are your conditions?

[Alan Mendelson]

Alan I don't understand what you're saying. Rob uses all those other deductions to offset his profit so he doesn't owe taxes on his vp winnings which I thought was your whole point of wanting to see how one could have 100.000 in deductions on 100.000 gross income. Total win-total loss=gross income, gross income-total deductions= net income.

Yes, you don't understand.

We aren't really interested in Rob's other deductions for parties, groceries, travel, tips, phone calls, postage. The entire "challenge" was based only on one thing: does his style of play make him a winner. Therefore we are not concerned if he offsets his wins with other deductible expenses. His Schedule C will show his gross revenue (winnings) and it will show his other deductions (groceries, office, travel, tips, advertising). Take a look at what a Schedule C is quahaug and you'll have a better idea of what I'm talking about.

The one thing we want to see is if he makes money using his strategies. What he does with the tax law to minimize his tax liability on his winnings is a separate issue.

Frankly, I am interested in what deductions he actually claimed but unless Rob gives me permission to release them, I won't. And since his Schedule C might not include his "professional years" they might not actually show what he fully claimed in his "professional years."

quahaug, you never filed a Schedule C, did you?

As a matter of fact schedule A is irrelevant isn't it? Gambling wins or losses (if a professional) go right on Schedule 1040 don't they?

Do you file an itemized return with a Schedule A or do you file a 1040A or 1040EZ for your job at McDonalds?

Here are the IRS instructions for how to handle gambling wins and losses:

Gambling Losses Up to the Amount of Gambling Winnings

You must report the full amount of your gambling winnings for the year on Form 1040, line 21. You deduct your gambling losses for the year on Schedule A (Form 1040), line 28. You cannot deduct gambling losses that are more than your winnings.


So yes, quahaug, we need the Schedule A unless Rob Singer never lost a bet.

By the way, quahaug, every time you question taxes I have to question more and more just what kind of casino advantage player you claim to be?

[Alan Mendelson]

To everyone on the forum: my role here is to look at the tax returns and report what I see. I am leaving it up to Rob and to Arc to reach a compromise on what tax returns will be presented.

Yes, I will report on tax returns sent to me by the IRS or copies that each player has. Now, keep in mind there is the possibility that a player could substitute a bogus return when they meet with me. I would certainly hope that no one would stoop that low.

The only way to be sure the tax returns are authentic is to get returns from the IRS.

And keep this in mind: a winner in a casino might (emphasize might) report bigger losses to offset their taxable win. For example, a player reports a win of $50,000 but then offsetting losses of $50,000 for a zero net win, when in reality they lost only $20,000. If the player did that on their tax returns we would never know what they really won because the IRS tax forms wouldn't be truthful, would they?

Are all of the forum members starting to see the various problems here with this "challenge"?

Frankly, I would be surprised if any "winning" player didn't do his best to maximize every possible losing bet to show a smaller net profit on his tax return. I wouldn't rule out that they added in a few "extra losses" to save a few tax dollars.

So, to the members of the forum: do you really want to accept the tax returns as being truthful?

In my case, my tax returns are truthful. Why? Because I never had a winning year. (Well, 2015 might be different.)

Edited to add: Yes, I will accept tax returns to report on whether given to me in person (yes Rob, you can still buy dinner for me and Linda) or sent by mail. But if one taxpayer is presenting their personal returns then the other taxpayer should not have to go to the expense of having returns sent by the IRS -- and that taxpayer should be allowed to send photo copies to me via the mail. What's fair for one should be fair for both.

And Rob, when we're having dinner, why don't you look Linda in the eye and say the things to her you say here on the forum.

[Rob.Singer]

In my 10 years as a FT pro I never cheated by claiming higher losses because I expected to be audited, and I wanted to have clean records from the time I withdrew money from the bank each week until the time I put it plus my winnings back in as soon as I returned from "tagging the building" as Fezzik used to say. Since then, however, I have offset my big winning years (aka, net profit) with an equivalent amount of losses on Schedule A, just as you would expect from any winner, to keep my taxes down (although the AGI was affected as was the AMT becoming active).

[quahaug]

Alan, I stand corrected on a recreational gambler deducting losses on schedule A. Didn't you say earlier that you didn't doubt robs winning but you were very interested in how he claimed 100,000 in deductions?

[quahaug]

Casino advantage player? Now that's funny!

[Alan Mendelson]

Alan, I stand corrected on a recreational gambler deducting losses on schedule A. Didn't you say earlier that you didn't doubt robs winning but you were very interested in how he claimed 100,000 in deductions?

Even a recreational gambler gambler deducts losses on a Schedule A.

Yes, I am interested in his deductions. But that has nothing to do with this "challenge" between Rob and Arc.

While I don't doubt Rob's wins, that is not the question here. Arc is challenging Rob and I am being asked to look at their tax returns and report what I see.

[quahaug]

Only a recreational gambler reports losses on A. Professionals would report everything on Sch.C. then report profit or loss on 1040, right?

[Alan Mendelson]

It would be advantageous for every professional in any business to use Schedule C. But if their income is so low, why bother? You need a certain income level to justify using a 1040. A "professional" could be sleeping in his car, using the casino rest room to wash, and eating comped meals and would have an income level too low to use anything but a 1040EZ.

[arcimede$]

It's beyond obvious that Singer never looked at form 4506 before today. He obvious didn't know about the 7 year restriction or the fact you couldn't specify schedules. I wonder how he came up with ...

"I sent the form in requesting the years along with the fee."

LOL. Obviously, Singer is in a panic from being so completely outed as a liar.

[Alan Mendelson]

Are we back to square one? In order to proceed both Arc and Rob have to agree to what year returns will be made available to me and how I will get them:

a. by mail from the IRS
b. in person from each (personal copies)
c. by mail from each (personal copies)

[quahaug]

It would be advantageous for every professional in any business to use Schedule C. But if their income is so low, why bother? You need a certain income level to justify using a 1040. A "professional" could be sleeping in his car, using the casino rest room to wash, and eating comped meals and would have an income level too low to use anything but a 1040EZ.

Yeah, a nickle AP flying under the radar. Never has to worry about social security running out of money either

[quahaug]

Wait a minute. Something wrong with working at Micky D's? It's honest work. Better than being an Obama layabout sucking off the public tit anyway.

[Alan Mendelson]

The problem with working at Micky D's is that In 'N Out pays more. LOL

[quahaug]

Maybe but unfortunately I'm on the east coast. 3000 mile commute to Vegas which is the closest one to me.

[Alan Mendelson]

At this point, I think there is nothing left to add to this thread until we hear from Arc and Rob. Other discussions should go into a different thread. Thanks.

[Rob.Singer]

Ok I'll sum it up the way Alan would like since all arci's doing is trying to cover up his lies about going thru with this a SECOND time around. And yes arci, I did read the form before requesting all those earlier years. Duh!

1. Arci will submit form 4506 along with $500 requesting FULL RETURNS from years 2005 thru 2014 to be sent to Alan's address. There's no guarantee he'll receive years 2005 thru 2007, but if he does then I will, and it'll just be 3 more years for him to writhe in pain over something else he doesn't like about me.

2. Once Alan receives the returns, he will provide whatever proof-of-receipt he deems appropriate, then I will request the same returns for Alan. No we cannot meet with a show & tell since the taxpayer is only required to retain 3 years tax returns from the filing date. And no, we cannot mail our own returns in to Alan. As a pathological liar about nearly everything, arci cannot be trusted by any stretch to do anything honest when it comes to video poker stuff. And I predict that as we speak, he's struggling to find either a way to convince Alan to accept his own submission....or how to devise a way to get a bogus set of tax returns made up and mailed from his IRS city and with a logo'd letter attached.

3. I'll do my best to go over my deductions on at least one schedule C personally with Alan after he receives my returns.

ABC/123....simple as pie.

[Rob.Singer]

Alan, I'm happy dinner is still on. I won't discuss this at all when we meet.

People who know me well know that I will say the same bold things to them in a face-to-face setting whenever I sincerely believe I am right. In my Government career as well as the business I worked in--and especially when I decided to be a public vp figure--no one succeeds or lasts particularly long when they wilt in the face of fire or run off to a joke of a place like Montana when the going gets tough. I won't bring it up, but if you or Linda want to talk about any of my comments or beliefs then I will certainly & truthfully do that.

[arcimede$]

Once again Singer proves he is dishonest. We already know you can't get forms before 2009. The IRS is legally required to destroy them. So, asking for earlier forms is silly. What Singer wants is for me to refuse to ask for forms I know are not possible to get (duh). Then he will claim it is me who is backing out.

This is so obvious a cave man could see it.

As soon as Alan sends me his address I will send in the request for 2009. If Singer then sends Alan his 2009 form then we can discuss later years.

[regnis]

You guys have more excuses for avoiding this deal than any of us can believe. Pick some years and agree on it and be done with it. You both know which years are available--stop the negotiations and just do it. Of course, the years in question are not available so that creates an issue.

I still feel Red's odds were way too low. I set it at 10,000,000 to 1 earlier and I may have to increase them.

[Alan Mendelson]

As soon as Alan sends me his address I will send in the request for 2009. If Singer then sends Alan his 2009 form then we can discuss later years.

I sent Arc a private message with my office address.