Can a robot be built to throw dice perfectly controlled?

[Alan Mendelson]

Sometimes I wonder who I am talking to on Internet forums.

Over on the Wizard's forum I've been arguing that DICE INFLUENCING is POSSIBLE.

I'm in the minority. A very tiny minority. I say Dice Influencing is possible and I've been told over and over it is not possible... even for a robot.

Yes, even a robot they tell me over on the WOV forum.

I've argued that a robot could easily be designed to throw two dice in a controlled manner so that they end with a desired result each and every time -- barring outside influences.

Put a robot at a craps table with a designed throw to a predetermined spot -- and that robot can deliver two dice to that predetermined spot over and over again. And barring any outside influences (moving the table, gusts of wind, a wet spot on the felt) the dice will travel the same way each and every time, leading to the same result each and every time.

It's simple physics I argue. And I am told that it can't be done.

How can that be?

Haven't robots landed on Mars and traveled and sent back images? Haven't robots landed on comets and deployed landing gear and transmitters and sent back data?

But -- say the experts at the WOV -- there are wind currents in casinos, and dice change shape and weight after every roll, and table surfaces change -- so a robot couldn't possibly throw a controlled shot with intended results on a craps table.

EDITED TO ADD:

One of the WOV regulars just wrote this (in bold):

The key word is "controlled."

Even if the dice are oriented exactly the same every time, and always tossed with the exact same force at the exact same speed: well, you know.

Heartbreak Hotel.

And I responded with this (in Italics):

Yes, heartbreak hotel for the naysayers.

If the dice are oriented exactly the same every time, and always tossed with the exact same force at the exact same speed, and so on and so on, and with no other variables such as earthquakes, gusts of wind, a fly being hit by the die on the left and a mosquito intercepting the die on the right, the dice will hit and bounce the same way each and every time. It's called physics.

Is that really too difficult for you to understand?

Craps tables are not moving objects. They are fixed. The table does not rotate or have waves under the felt, and the walls don't move and the pyramids don't vibrate. The dice are also fixed objects of size and weight. Now unless you start changing these parts of the equation -- that "robot" is going to get the same results with two dice each and every time.

Yes, that would be CONTROL.

[Rob.Singer]

Casinos are not controlled environments. Temps change, humidity changes, and the earth's moving Alan. Smart money would not bet on that robot.

[a2a3dseddie]

Hey Alan,

Do you think that if all the numbered balls in the Powerball Lottery machine were oriented the exact same way, and spun around at the same speed for the same amount of time that an identifiable pattern of reoccurring numbers would result?

[Alan Mendelson]

Casinos are not controlled environments. Temps change, humidity changes, and the earth's moving Alan. Smart money would not bet on that robot.

I wrote "with no other variables."

But even with variables, robots have landed and functioned on Mars and a comet. So you think functioning on a casino craps table is a challenge? LOL

[Alan Mendelson]

Hey Alan,

Do you think that if all the numbered balls in the Powerball Lottery machine were oriented the exact same way, and spun around at the same speed for the same amount of time that an identifiable pattern of reoccurring numbers would result?

The question is how are the balls spun around? Are they spun in a random or controlled manor?

(Thought you were going to trip me up, huh?)

[a2a3dseddie]

The question is how are the balls spun around? Are they spun in a random or controlled manor?

(Thought you were going to trip me up, huh?)

Yes, spun around in a controlled manner...

I think as far as "controlled throws" go, it's nice to fantasize about such a thing being possible, but isn't it just the "illusion of control" we're being taunted with when the dice are pushed our way?

[Bill Yung]

... isn't it just the "illusion of control" we're being taunted with when the dice are pushed our way?

"Citizen Kane" stuff. Remember Rosebud?

Now we need a perfect craps table and casino to go along with the robots.

[Alan Mendelson]

Let me keep this discussion on track.

First, no human can "control" dice. I criticized our friend Frank Scoblete for using that word.

Second, this is a discussion about robots and technology.

Again, after having robots function on Mars and on a comet are you telling me a robot can't be built to throw a controlled shot on a casino craps table?

[Bill Yung]

Let me keep this discussion on track.

The ultimate in control IS randomness.

Eg, in poker, the optimal strategy is randomization, which only includes bluffing.

Eg, if you build a perfect bullet, and fire it from a perfect gun perfectly at a perfect perpendicular wall... which way will it bounce?

[Alan Mendelson]

The ultimate in control IS randomness.

Eg, in poker, the optimal strategy is randomization, which only includes bluffing.

Eg, if you build a perfect bullet, and fire it from a perfect gun perfectly at a perfect perpendicular wall... which way will it bounce?

A die is not a bullet.

[Bill Yung]

But, the issue of control versus randomness is the same.

[a2a3dseddie]

I think a robot could be built, that would hold the dice the exact same way, in the exact same position and toss the dice with the exact same force, at the exact same spot against the back wall of a craps table...or as close to exact as human science allows. But would it make a difference? There are too many other variables...bounce of the dice off the table and off the back wall for instance. Even Rob says this...

Casinos are not controlled environments. Temps change, humidity changes, and the earth's moving Alan.

[Alan Mendelson]

Basic physics. If you throw two dice the same way and they hit the pyramids the same way they will bounce the same way. We are not including the variables of flies hitting the dice, or dice hitting cigarette ashes.

And the earth's moving? What about that comet? LOL

[RS__]

I suspect Alan knows nothing about physics. Don't worry, I don't really know anything either about physics. Or perhaps I'm wrong and you know something about physics. Well then -- can you describe to us how this works, with simple physics n all? :claps:


BTW, no one cares if a robot can throw the dice in a motionless temperature controlled vacuum.

When the DI walks up to the table, does he stand in the exact same position? You say yes, probably, but chances are his position won't be identical to his previous positions or practice layout. Ya know, not all tables are the same height, most are actually different heights!

[Alan Mendelson]

Well, RS___ I only know THREE people out of the hundreds or thousands I have seen shoot dice in more than 25+ years who I would describe as true DIs. I know of no one who is a "dice controller" and I think that is impossible except for a robot.

As I explained on the WOV forum the reason why it's important to know that a robot can do it is because the "naysayers" are using crude machines and "slides" to show that a "controlled shot" is impossible. Indeed it is impossible using a crude machine or a slide -- because they can't deliver the two dice the same way every time.

If a robot were built with the same technology used to put robots on Mars and on a comet then at least we would see what a true controlled shot is.

Does that mean a human can do it? No.

But what it would mean is that it is possible. Right now on the WOV forum there are a bunch of naysayers who say "impossible" and use bogus information including crude machines and slides to back up their claim.

If they are going to say "impossible" let them first see what can really be done.

In the meantime, there are those there who continue to refer to scientific papers that relate to hand-thrown dice and the erratic nature of tables. I'm not talking about hand-thrown dice and erratic tables. Let's deal with one problem at a time.

Yes, physics back this up. It's Newton's 3rd Law.

[RS__]

Yes, physics back this up. It's Newton's 3rd Law.

Newton's 3rd Law.....

[regnis]

Newton's 3rd----or was it Beethoven's 5th??