Winning at Video Poker without a Royal

[Alan Mendelson]

Bounce back is supposed to be 1% of coin in on machines only. Your play in November would give you bounce back in either January or February -- I'm not sure which. If you played a lot but didn't get it your account might not be "coded" for it then speak to a host.

Bounce back must be used as free play. There was a time when you could cash out bounce back but that changed.

That's how I remember it.

[Boygenius]

Bounce back is supposed to be 1% of coin in on machines only. Your play in November would give you bounce back in either January or February -- I'm not sure which. If you played a lot but didn't get it your account might not be "coded" for it then speak to a host.

Bounce back must be used as free play. There was a time when you could cash out bounce back but that changed.

That's how I remember it.

Thank you.

[Dan Druff]

I believe Rincon only gives you bounceback when you lose.

Or at least that's what I've experienced.

[Alan Mendelson]

I believe Rincon only gives you bounceback when you lose.

Or at least that's what I've experienced.

Even when you win you get it. It's based strictly on coin-in. But there were months when my account wasn't "coded" for it and a host had to get it fixed.

It comes in the monthly mailers. I have been no - mailed. Dan are you getting mailers? You should have had a lot of bounceback from your big trip.

[Dan Druff]

I got mostly shit from my big trip.

The biggest offers I've received have been over the past 2 months.

I haven't been back to Rincon since that trip in March.

Too bad, because perhaps I could have met some more meth heads asking me for $20.

[Alan Mendelson]

You were getting hit up for cash too? Just about every visit to Rincon someone was asking me for money to get home. Another reason Rincon sucked as a place to be.

[redietz]

I will say this -- the southern Californian beggars are the best dressed I have ever encountered. I hate when somebody with $150 sneakers and a good-looking polo shirt asks me for gas money in the Pechanga parking lot. At least in Atlantic City, beggars look like beggars.

[Dan Druff]

Here's what I wrote in March about my last Rincon session there:

With about 15 minutes left in my final session on Monday night/Tuesday morning, a skinny, raspy-voiced woman who looked about 40 approached me. I had seen her walking around talking to various guys, and it was clear she was at least a semi-regular.

I'll give her credit for being polite and asking if I was busy playing, and if she was bothering me. Being curious what her deal was, I told her that it was fine, and she wasn't bothering me. Keep in mind that I have a long-term relationship and wasn't looking to get laid or anything like that. This girl had kind of a druggie look to her, and I was curious what she was going to say to me. My only concern was that she was going to bug me for money, but at that point I was just going to tell her no and get back to playing.

For my final 15 minutes of play, it was actually an interesting conversation. She described herself as a "pillhead", and told me about various troubles she's had with her life. Like, she wasn't telling me in a "feel sorry for me and give me money" sort of way, but kind of just matter-of-factly venting about everything. She also told me that a lot of the regulars who hang out a lot at Rincon have drug problems, which isn't hard to believe. When I was done playing, she said that she wished she had found me earlier, because the Double Super Times Pay game was "interesting" and she really wanted to learn it "to maybe make some money". I was about to go into the whole thing that even the best game in the house is still -EV, and that these machines aren't really good for trying to make money you really need in the short term, but I just kept my mouth shut and said something like, "Yeah, I would have shown you more, but I'm done for the night."

I got up and went to go cash out my tickets, and then she moved over to the other side and started talking to another woman there -- a younger, fairly pretty blond girl who also seemed to be a regular there, and seemed to have an endless parade of guys (also regulars?) going up and talking to her while she played. I assume the two of them knew each other, but didn't bother to find out.

As I was walking away from the machines, she saw me and yelled, "Bye, Tom! Oh... hey, Tom.. can I have five bucks?"

She wasn't joking. And she thought my name was Tom, instead of Todd (despite telling one of her friends who walked by that my name was Todd.)

I told her that I didn't have any small bills on me, which was true.

She was also missing a lot of teeth.

At one point, a guy was trying to get her to leave with him back to his room at another hotel. She claimed she was just hooking him up with a drug dealer friend that he wanted to buy from, but I believe it was probably a prostitution thing.

He seemed nervous about me hearing their discussion about leaving together, at which point she told him that I was "cool" and wouldn't create trouble.

[Boygenius]

Bounce back is supposed to be 1% of coin in on machines only. Your play in November would give you bounce back in either January or February -- I'm not sure which. If you played a lot but didn't get it your account might not be "coded" for it then speak to a host.

Bounce back must be used as free play. There was a time when you could cash out bounce back but that changed.

That's how I remember it.

Another Rincon cutback. The bounce back rebate program was discontinued a couple of months ago.

[alpax]

I got mostly shit from my big trip.

The biggest offers I've received have been over the past 2 months.

I haven't been back to Rincon since that trip in March.

Too bad, because perhaps I could have met some more meth heads asking me for $20.

From what I read on VPFree forums in the past, it is discovered that each table game, slot machine, and video poker machine is assigned a theoretical loss rating at ADT-based casinos like Total Rewards you are heavily vested into. I recall someone got a casino host to disclose the theoretical ratings assigned to certain machines on the floor at Harrah's Lake Tahoe, but I do not know how the person is able to make such a bribe.

Obviously you settle for the highest returning games whenever possible. Those games have nearly no weight in theoretical loss which will affect your offers despite the time you've put into it. The $25 coin in per tier credit 8/5 Bonus Poker and 9/6 Jacks or Better that Alan plays at Caesars Palace has a very tiny theoretical rating.

It is a trial and error process to see how much action on a certain machine (with the poorest games) will produce such results, in general people do not have easy access to such information and it always becomes a moving target once you find a sweetspot. That is the reason in Vegas one person will do trial and error process on the floor at Casino A and another person will do trial and error process on the floor at Casino B. They will agree to trade such information of value at Casino A and B. That is the value of having an inner circle outside of the folks in this forum.

[Alan Mendelson]

Another Rincon cutback. The bounce back rebate program was discontinued a couple of months ago.

Why would anyone play there now?

[Alan Mendelson]

That is the reason in Vegas one person will do trial and error process on the floor at Casino A and another person will do trial and error process on the floor at Casino B. They will agree to trade such information of value at Casino A and B. That is the value of having an inner circle outside of the folks in this forum.

I don't think there's any need for trial and error experiments. All we need to do is share the information.
The trial and error experiments only mean that someone is going to lose more money than they have to.

And why even bother experimenting with Caesars? We all know they've been cutting back on offers -- as have most Vegas casino companies.

And -- even more important -- offers are only a tiny percentage of our play so playing for offers is ridiculous. Just like playing for comps is ridiculous. You play to win and take whatever offers the come along.

[spojoey]

Why would anyone play there now?

As far as local casinos go (So Cal) it can't be beat. Vegas is to far to travel for me.Thats why I ONLY go there. I have played at most all of them and Rincon treats me the best.

[Alan Mendelson]

In all honesty, why Rincon?

Just down the road is Pechanga which has better video poker and is a larger casino with better entertainment and more and better restaurants. It's also close to the 15 Freeway and when weather is bad you don't have to drive on dangerous, two-lane roads with twists and turns. Pechanga also boasts one of the nicest poker rooms and you won't see the same 8 people at the same $1-$2 limit game 18 hours a day.

The only advantage Rincon had was that it was linked to Total Rewards but now that the Total Rewards program is going down hill, why bother?

I don't consider myself a local player anymore. For me to get to Pechanga it's now a three hour drive. To get to Rincon it's a three and a half hour drive. To get to Morongo it's a two and a half hour drive. I'm better off making the five hour drive to Vegas to play real craps and to see the best entertainment in the world and dine in some of the best restaurants anywhere. And in Vegas I will actually stay in a hotel as opposed to day tripping.

[slobdinger]

From what I read on VPFree forums in the past, it is discovered that each table game, slot machine, and video poker machine is assigned a theoretical loss rating at ADT-based casinos like Total Rewards you are heavily vested into. I recall someone got a casino host to disclose the theoretical ratings assigned to certain machines on the floor at Harrah's Lake Tahoe, but I do not know how the person is able to make such a bribe.

Obviously you settle for the highest returning games whenever possible. Those games have nearly no weight in theoretical loss which will affect your offers despite the time you've put into it. The $25 coin in per tier credit 8/5 Bonus Poker and 9/6 Jacks or Better that Alan plays at Caesars Palace has a very tiny theoretical rating.

It is a trial and error process to see how much action on a certain machine (with the poorest games) will produce such results, in general people do not have easy access to such information and it always becomes a moving target once you find a sweetspot. That is the reason in Vegas one person will do trial and error process on the floor at Casino A and another person will do trial and error process on the floor at Casino B. They will agree to trade such information of value at Casino A and B. That is the value of having an inner circle outside of the folks in this forum.

Alpax, what you are describing here is called "working theo." And you are right about a small innner circle of guys working theo all over the country. I don't know how succesful they are at it now because of cutbacks by the casinos in freeplay but at one time they were making low to mid six figures doing it on $5 denom machines.

Look at theo from the slot operations manager's perspective. His 9/6 Jacks players are mostly a skilled lot. They play perfect or almost perfect strategy. The game has just a .46% theoretical hold but with mistakes that the players make he might be holding .6%. This figure can be skewed by the players running off their freeplay on the same game. These figures can easily be determined by the actual hold figures on the game.

But take his 9/5 Double Double Bonus players. They are playing a 97.87% game. So the theoretical hold is 2.13%. And what is the skill range of the 9/5 Double Double Bonus players? Do they have any real skill at the game? If they did they would probably be playing a higher payback game. The hold figures from the machines show the slot operations manager that he is holding 4% from these players.

Player A plays 9/6 Jacks at $5 denom and runs $100,000 in action on his trip.
Player B plays 9/5 Double Double bonus and runs $100,000 in action on his trip.

How much freeplay do you think the casino will offer player A?
How much freeplay do you think the casino will offer player B?

Some players, through trial and error, or inside information or whatever, were able to find the sweetspot. The sweetspot being running $100,000 in action on a game that has a true theoretical loss of 1.5% but they get $3000 in freeplay everytime they run it.

These players created a losers profile and exploited it.

[redietz]

Slob,

Thanks for the informative and interesting posts.

[alpax]

Thanks slobdinger, it was well stated so that everyone can understand the working theo process.

[Rob.Singer]

Except he's guessing about all of it. You put $100k of action thru any slot machine at any particular casino and you'll get the same amount of free-play for playing any machine unless there's a sign stating otherwise on the machine. That theo stuff is nothing more than theories people come up with when they want to sound knowledgeable. Even most hosts don't know how and why the free-play is issued. But mickey does. What's that tell you.

[Alan Mendelson]

Except he's guessing about all of it. You put $100k of action thru any slot machine at any particular casino and you'll get the same amount of free-play for playing any machine unless there's a sign stating otherwise on the machine.

I'm not sure that's correct. I know for a fact that when I used to play at Rincon I got more free play offers when I played DDB than when I played Aces and Faces and Bonus poker. I asked and was specifically told the house advantage was lower on Aces and Faces and Bonus (both full pay 8/5) than 9/5 DDB (that's what it was back then) and for that reason my free play was lower.

I don't know how free play is given on slots (not video poker) but it wouldn't surprise me if games with a better payback had lower free play.

I remember at Morongo that some machines would not accept free play -- but you did earn free play on those machines. They might have been wide area progressives -- but not sure.

[Rob.Singer]

That's the easy answer. What else was he going to say to close your issue. Unless you kept specific, detailed records then you really wouldn't know. And some casinos reward free play based on actual win/loss, either in conjunction with the game you're playing or stand alone.