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Thread: Is Bob Dancer saying break the law?

  1. #1
    This column by Bob Dancer made me think twice -- three times even:

    http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/bob_dancer/2016/0105.cfm

    Is he suggesting to players that they break the law to wrangle additional comps out of casinos?

    The line that got me concerned is when he wrote: "Some of the previous items might be legally fraudulent. Usually you won't be caught, and if you are, usually you won't be prosecuted."

    Wow, if I do get prosecuted is he going to pay for my legal defense? If I only "get caught" will he make up for the future offers I will lose?

    I personally have a strong feeling about "double dipping" which means taking offers during the same trip from two different casino companies when a hotel booking is involved. My main reason for not double dipping is that by concentrating my play at one casino I am more likely to preserve my offers -- and maybe get better ones.

    Since I am not a high roller if I tried to get offers from two companies with two hotel offers on the same nights I would dilute my play at both and shoot myself in the foot.

    Yes, I also don't like to lie. I get enough telling the truth.

    I should add this: if more than one casino has a free play offer for me on the same day -- but NO hotel booking is involved -- yes I will travel to the other casino to use their free play. Heck, that's just like here in SoCal where I use free play offers all the time without staying in their hotel.

  2. #2
    Finally something worthy of my time. I have no interest in if "yo's" we're rolled 18 times in a row and I'll give my final take with no follow-on arguing in the Tax Return thread momentarily.

    We already know Dancer is a real life dirty snake. That's why he thinks of writing these things, and he actually does them.

    By "legally fraudulent" he's referring to a lie that isn't against the law, but the act can be considered fraudulent. I have no problem with a simple airline reimbursement from two separate casinos for the same tickets, even if you have to do some razzle-dazzle copying to get them.

    But it's wrong and I believe against the law to make up a companion or make up false tickets for someone who didn't really make the trip. And a decent, responsible person wouldn't even bring these type of possibilities up. Any doubts still remain as to why such a sleaze would rather get thrown out if the house in a nasty divorce rather than stay out of casinos to help a sick spouse?

    People who gamble and lose think these type of sick things up. Good luck, Bonnie.

  3. #3
    Alan, why should a hotel booking be the difference between whether double-dipping is right or wrong? I don't get the moral difference there. Plus your stand is completely murky and confusing. What if the casinos making the offer are competitors under the same umbrella? What would that have to do with anything if your stand is moral? Does it matter if you're under the same host at two different properties or under two different hosts?

    You're "cheating" on casino A with casino B no matter if you've booked rooms or not.

  4. #4
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    Alan, why should a hotel booking be the difference between whether double-dipping is right or wrong? I don't get the moral difference there. Plus your stand is completely murky and confusing. What if the casinos making the offer are competitors under the same umbrella? What would that have to do with anything if your stand is moral? Does it matter if you're under the same host at two different properties or under two different hosts?

    You're "cheating" on casino A with casino B no matter if you've booked rooms or not.
    I agree with the above.

    I never understood Alan's opposition to double dipping offers.

    If it's simply because you are afraid you can't play enough at two casinos without hurting your ADT at one or both, I understand. At least there's a practical reason.

    But if it's on moral grounds, I don't understand it.

    Casinos are not your friends. They are enticing you with offers in the hopes that you will blow more money there. Basically the casino's goal is to take every last penny from you. As a result, you should not feel a bit of guilt for turning the tables on them whenever possible, provided you are not cheating or stealing.

    So let's say you are sent 2 offers -- one with $400 freeplay from Caesars, and one with $800 freeplay from Bellagio. There is nothing unethical about redeeming both, even if it means you need a hotel stay in both and one room sits empty.

    It seems that Alan's issue is with a hotel stay. He feels weird about "wasting" a hotel room. But you're not really wasting anything if the property isn't sold out, and even if it is sold out, you can avoid the "waste" by bringing along a friend and letting them have it for free. You don't owe the casino exclusivity -- legally or morally -- by redeeming a hotel offer.

    Dancer's airfare game is a bit of a different story.

    He is advocating pulling things like asking for airfare reimbursement for two people when he's only flying one, or asking for first class reimbursement when actually flying coach -- and making up phony receipts to "prove" those expenses.

    That actually is fraud.

    Now, I understand Dancer's point. He's saying that airfare reimbursement is a perk that casinos are giving you to get you down there, and if they are willing to spend $2000 to get you there, why not just take a cheaper flight and pretend you spent $2000, since the bottom line is that you got them to agree to pay for that expense. Kind of like if you asked them to let you go down the street to your favorite steakhouse and give you $400 for the meal, and then in reality you go to McDonalds and spend $5.

    So Dancer is openly asking, "If they're willing to spend the money, who cares if it end up in my pocket or the airline's?"

    The problem is that you're falsifying expenses in order to get this money.

    Taking casinos out of it, pretend that you run a business and agree to fly out a potential client from New York. Perhaps the client will demand you pay for first class, and if he's important to your company, you will pay the money (say, $2000) to fly him that way. But if you find out later that he actually flew coach on a discount airline for $250, you are going to be furious and feel like he cheated you -- and indeed he did.

    Anyway, I'm surprised Dancer is writing a column like that. It's one thing to take these risks yourself and deal with the consequences if caught, but it's another to advise others to do it.

    I also somewhat doubt Dancer has ever done this, because if he has, casinos he's pulled it on in the past can read this column and scrutinize past reimbursements they gave him, and nail him for it.

    I think this was a "what if" thought he had in his head, and decided to write a column about it.

    Of course, Dancer also once wrote a column about stealing a $10 motel continental breakfast, so this isn't too surprising.
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  5. #5
    I'm not clear on your questions redietz but I will give these examples and then let me know how I can further explain:

    1. Here in SoCal I've received free play offers from both Pechanga and Rincon -- both requred no hotel stay. On my way to Rincon I would stop at Pechanga and play both casino's free play.

    2. In Vegas I've received free play offers for the same weekend from both Caesars and MGM. Both offers require a hotel stay. I have always chosen one or the other and never booked both. Here's why:

    I know that free play offers are dependent on the amount of play. If I book at both hotels and don't play enough at both hotels I could lose free play at one or the other in the future.

    It's less of a moral decision than a "personal business" decision. Morally? I never brought up any moral question. There is nothing wrong with taking advantage of an offer sent to you and theoretically I could make use of one room in both hotels. Using any free hotel or free play offer is not immoral or illegal if I didn't fool them or trick them into giving it to me.

    But I am not a high roller who can play at both casinos/companies enough on the same visit to keep my "good standing" intact for future offers.

  6. #6
    Dancer's strategy has a kind of precedent. Basketball officials got in trouble a few years back for booking expensive airline tickets, giving the NBA receipts for them, then cashing them in and buying cheap non-refundable tickets. IRS wasn't happy. Neither was the NBA.

    I'm out to take every dime from casinos that I can -- but I wouldn't claim a partner flew unless a partner flew. I also wouldn't do the free breakfast thing Dancer advocated a couple of years ago. If someone's broke, really hungry, and sleeping in a car outside the hotel, okay -- poach some breakfast. If you can afford to stay in the hotel -- don't poach the breakfast.

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    I never understood Alan's opposition to double dipping offers.

    If it's simply because you are afraid you can't play enough at two casinos without hurting your ADT at one or both, I understand. At least there's a practical reason.
    Thanks, you understand.

    What amazes me is that there are people who think they can double dip all they want and the casinos won't see that their play has been reduced and won't cut future offers. Everything is tracked by computers -- they see it.

    Remember that weekend when I hit the $31-thou progressive at Bellagio? When I asked to book another trip my host told me he was reducing my free play because I didn't play enough that particular weekend. I had to reason with him to restore my free play -- and I said to him "I just won 31-grand did you really expect me to keep playing?"

  8. #8
    My personal philosophy is to quadruple dip if I can. I don't care about merit badges; I don't care which evil blood-suckers like me. I'd double-dip for $10 in free play and lunch. The structure of CET is at risk in the immediate future -- no sense being nicey-nice. If you have a track record (and Alan does), other properties in Las Vegas will want your action enough that using and abusing a particular property or company would be the last thing that would concern me.

    Torpedo the hosts and full speed ahead. If there's a free lunch, take it. There's no guarantee you'll make it to next week, and the hosts ain't paying for your funeral.

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    Dancer's strategy has a kind of precedent. Basketball officials got in trouble a few years back for booking expensive airline tickets, giving the NBA receipts for them, then cashing them in and buying cheap non-refundable tickets. IRS wasn't happy. Neither was the NBA.

    I'm out to take every dime from casinos that I can -- but I wouldn't claim a partner flew unless a partner flew. I also wouldn't do the free breakfast thing Dancer advocated a couple of years ago. If someone's broke, really hungry, and sleeping in a car outside the hotel, okay -- poach some breakfast. If you can afford to stay in the hotel -- don't poach the breakfast.
    Agreed, some of his suggestions smack of degeneracy. I'm all for taking advantage of freebies, It's a slippery slope when you start justifying fraud and deceit. Why not take the furniture from hotel rooms? Clocks on the bed tables? Linen? After all, these Casinos are taking our money, shouldn't we be able to get all we can?

    As Bob Dancer said: "Usually you won't be caught, and if you are, usually you won't be prosecuted."

  10. #10
    My favorite story about taking things from hotel rooms goes back to the first NYE when the Augustus Tower was open at Caesars. That weekend the hotel lost a bunch of big screen TVs -- guests took them out of the rooms in large suitcases and shipping containers.

    Personally, I plan my trips to Vegas according to when I am likely to run out of soap and shampoo at home. It really hurt me when Caesars stopped giving out free razors.

  11. #11
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    My favorite story about taking things from hotel rooms goes back to the first NYE when the Augustus Tower was open at Caesars. That weekend the hotel lost a bunch of big screen TVs -- guests took them out of the rooms in large suitcases and shipping containers.

    Personally, I plan my trips to Vegas according to when I am likely to run out of soap and shampoo at home. It really hurt me when Caesars stopped giving out free razors.
    That brought a laugh, I have a Gilchrist & Soames body lotion sitting on my desk as I type.

  12. #12
    My bathroom is loaded with Gilchrist and Soames!

    I read about 10 years ago, when I was debating the degeneracy of poaching towels, that the MGM lost 50,000 towels a year to guests and it was built into their costs. So then I did the math about how often guests likely took towels. Bottom line: I'm not going to feel badly if a towel accidentally winds up in my luggage.

  13. #13
    I was once questioned by my host about airfare reimbursement where my ticket said monday thru saturday but I was only staying at the hotel monday through thursday. Of course, I was using 2 hotel deals (different companies) and yes I did get reimbursed twice for the airfare. I simply stated that I was staying with friends the extra 2 days but would probably stop in to gamble a few more times during those 2 days. That is one of the downsides of now only having one casino company affiliation, but as a once a year visitor now I don't get airfare anymore anyway.

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Personally, I plan my trips to Vegas according to when I am likely to run out of soap and shampoo at home. It really hurt me when Caesars stopped giving out free razors.
    It will be interesting to see how long my soap and shampoo last after I quit going to my local casino. As I mentioned a few weeks ago, they removed all my positive machines. However, since I am still at the highest tier level I still get a good chunk of freeplay/cash when I show up. This will allow me to play a little at a lower denomination and still have a good chance to come out ahead. So, I will likely still be collecting soap and shampoo through this summer. Then I will be completely done.

    Given what I have collected in the past 15 months I would not be surprised if it lasted 5-10 years.

  15. #15
    Alan, by occasionally double-dipping with a hotel offer, you are NOT really harming your offers in the long run, especially if you still play at both properties.

    The offers system is designed to withstand fluctuation in play. If you play more than normal on one trip, your offers aren't iikely to increase (unless it's MUCH more than normal). If you play less than normal on another trip, your offers aren't likely to decrease (unless you don't play at all, or barely play).

    So if you have a trip where you play 50% as much as you normally do at both properties, your offers aren't likely to be affected at all, provided that next time you return to approximately normal play.

    Therefore, it is +EV for you to double-dip offers in this fashion, at least occasionally.

    BTW, whether a hotel is attached or not is not relevant. As soon as you play a penny in any casino, it is considered a "trip", and this figures into your ADT. (This is why people are advised NOT to play $5 blackjack with friends across the street at Caesars when staying/playing otherwise at Bellagio -- because that $5 blackjack visit will harm your ADT if you are otherwise a high limit player.) The hotel part only matters in that it deducts from your AMT (average marketing theoretical), in that the casino "charges" the redeemed hotel against the money they expect to make from you. But again, if you do this only occasionally, it won't matter.
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  16. #16
    Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    Alan, by occasionally double-dipping with a hotel offer, you are NOT really harming your offers in the long run, especially if you still play at both properties.
    I wouldn't risk it. Whatever the extra free play I would get from a second casino isn't worth taking any chances. Honestly... would I really want to book a second hotel just for $300 of free play? Why bother?

  17. #17
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Honestly... would I really want to book a second hotel just for $300 of free play? Why bother?
    I would. No guarantees you'll get anything beyond that offer anyway. I'd rather get it and get nothing in the future.

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    I would. No guarantees you'll get anything beyond that offer anyway. I'd rather get it and get nothing in the future.
    In economics there is a term known as the "opportunity cost." You have to weigh the pros and cons of each choice you make.

    In this case, I have offers from Casino A and offers from Casino B.
    On one particular weekend, both A and B give me offers.
    I could choose to take both offers the same weekend, or...
    I could use offer A this weekend and use a future offer from B another weekend.

    My opportunity costs:
    In one case, I am losing the opportunity of using both offers. Or, by using both offers I run the risk that future offers from one or both casinos could be limited in the future.

    If you think that Offer A will return in the future, and Offer B was a one-time only offer, then indeed you might want to book both and limit your play only to Casino A.

    In my case I know that offers from both A and B will continue if I don't abuse them.

    You make your own decisions.

  19. #19
    OMG Alan, I regularly booked 4-6 hotels for 10+ years just to get as many of the freebies as we're offered. They don't stop sending offers after one or two stiff trips. After a while you learn how to work THEIR system to your best advantage with some higher limit play.

  20. #20
    This is the part of Rob's mantra with which I concur. Do what the casinos do not want you to do, and you'll pretty much never go wrong.

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