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Thread: Cromwell Starts 100X odds at craps

  1. #1
    Started about two weeks ago.

    Maximum odds is $5000.

    Minimum bet is $10.

    Still double on the 2 and 12 in the field.

    http://alanbestbuys.com/id139.html

  2. #2
    100X odds is back. The Casino Royale near Harrah's LV had them for a while before they got rid of them.

  3. #3
    I went to Casino Royale with a high roller friend of mine some years back so he could play 100X odds. He played $5 pass or $5 dont pass with 100X odds (Im not sure if he was allowed to bet more on the DP?) He had a $25,000 bankroll and he lost it in half an hour. So much for the wonders of 100X odds.

    I've never bet more than 3, 4, 5X odds, even at Red Rock which had 10X odds.

    And remember when the Riviera had 1000X odds? One of my clients went there to play that. He was all excited that it was his big chance to break Vegas. He didn't admit how much he lost, but he told me he was taking $25-$50K with him. I don't know what he got "extra" once he was there.

    I am yet to hear of a player who won big because of taking big odds. The idea is good, but odds don't make you win.
    Last edited by Alan Mendelson; 04-25-2016 at 11:42 PM.

  4. #4
    In theory the higher odds is suppose to slightly reduce the house edge, but there is still a house edge at even 100x or 1000x odds. The payout is just slightly above 1 for 1 in the end if the player wins.

    In the past around the 1990s, playing $10 a hand in blackjack was good enough for free room comps and meals. I do remember the pit bosses saying to the players sitting at a $5 table, "if you double your bets, your hotel stay is free". Those were the good days.

    I am very sure your clients got good comps, but they have to make sure the pitboss is seeing those large bets.

  5. #5
    If you're already gonna be betting $5 on the line (or $50 or whatever), it neither helps nor hurts you to bet $10 in odds or $5,000 in odds, as you're only giving up money on the PL/DP, or 1.41% of $5 (for a $5 line bettor).

    Granted, I'd rather have $5 on the line with $100 in odds than $25 on the line with $75 in odds.

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by alpax View Post
    I am very sure your clients got good comps, but they have to make sure the pitboss is seeing those large bets.
    Ironically neither stayed at the casinos they played at.
    My buddy who lost $25K at Casino Royale was staying at the Mirage.
    My client who lost $25K-$50K and maybe more at the Riviera was staying at Wynn.
    Neither would stay at the place they were playing. LOL

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by RS__ View Post
    If you're already gonna be betting $5 on the line (or $50 or whatever), it neither helps nor hurts you to bet $10 in odds or $5,000 in odds, as you're only giving up money on the PL/DP, or 1.41% of $5 (for a $5 line bettor).
    I love this thinking. This is the problem that "textbook" players have. With $5,000 in odds they say things like "you're only giving up money on the PL/DP, or 1.41% of $5...." As if to say -- you will always break even on the odds. Yeah, always.

    Tell that to my two buddies.
    Tell that to the guy I wrote about at Caesars who lost $60,000 in one weekend, and was down another $20,000... but he wouldn't bet the STA because it was a "sucker bet."

    Yeah. Love it.

  8. #8
    The problem with probabilities, odds, reduced HA, etc is that these numbers are obtained after millions of rolls, hands. That's the fallacy that we as gamblers/AP get into. Just because the HA goes from 0.3% (3/4/5 max) to 0.02% (100 max) does not mean that you are going to be close to even with the house. In the looooong run, this is true, however short runs are subject to variance. Therefore you could win a lot of money or lose your a@#.
    The WofV site advises to always place the max odds so that you can decrease the HA. It does not tell you that your bank roll is going to take a huge fluctuation because of that. If you have a huge bank roll and play all the time, then go for it. This is not the strategy for me.

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    I love this thinking. This is the problem that "textbook" players have. With $5,000 in odds they say things like "you're only giving up money on the PL/DP, or 1.41% of $5...." As if to say -- you will always break even on the odds. Yeah, always.

    Tell that to my two buddies.
    Tell that to the guy I wrote about at Caesars who lost $60,000 in one weekend, and was down another $20,000... but he wouldn't bet the STA because it was a "sucker bet."

    Yeah. Love it.
    You got a much better bet, by doing $5 PL with $5,000 in odds. And a poorer bet by doing $1,000 on the PL with $4,000 in odds. It doesn't make you any more likely to win or lose on a single roll, though.

  10. #10
    RS__ you and I have a different definition of a good bet or a better bet. To me a better bet or a good bet is a bet I have the best chance of winning.

    I have the best chance of winning the pass line flat bet. Once odds are added -- single or double or 100x or 1000x -- I lost that good bet.

    You won't agree. I understand.

  11. #11
    The odds bet and pass line are separate bets, as I'm sure you know. The real question about them, is that if you had the opportunity to bet one or the other, but not both. Do you still choose the pass line? I'd hope you'll say no.

  12. #12
    We have had 100x odds in Illinois for many years. We did kill the Horseshoe one night because of it. I do not increase my odds bet initially because of the ability to use 100x odds. rather, as the roll progresses and points are made, it enables you to increase your odds without increasing your pass line bet.

    When combined with put bets, it is very effective during a hot roll. If the table is cold, it obviously doesn't help.

    So if you only use it as a means of pressing rather than jumping right in at full odds, it is a great tool.

  13. #13
    Questions (I do not play craps) -- to what extent does the 100X odds bets affect your rating? Do you truly get rated that much higher for placing these bets with no house edge? And is Cromwell the only current CET location in LV to offer the 100X odds? Does that suggest the Cromwell is specifically doing poorly financially for CET to install this? Or does it mean that the player demography at Cromwell is somehow different than other CET locations, making it okay for the house to offer this?

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    Questions (I do not play craps) -- to what extent does the 100X odds bets affect your rating?
    Excellent question.

    Some casinos include the "odds" bet in your ratings and some do not. I don't know what the policy is at Cromwell in particular but at Caesars Palace the odds ARE INCLUDED in your rating. I am going to guess that if Caesars includes the odds in the rating (for Total Rewards tier points and reward credits) then Cromwell will as well.

    Some casino companies do not include the odds because it has no house advantage (edge) and they don't want to give any comps on something they theoretically don't make money on.

    Caesars Palace looks at it differently. While the math says the casino has no edge on the odds, the casino is still more likely to win each odds bet because the casino has the edge on each flat bet and the odds are linked to the flat bet.

    But with that said, how table bets are rated is a mystery. While we know how many tier points and reward credits are given for slots and video poker play, we don't know how table game bets are rated. We can guess but the formula has not been published.

    Now I am going to call Cromwell and ask them if the odds are included. Will update this in a few minutes.

    UPDATE: YES, THEY INCLUDE ODDS IN THE RATING.
    Last edited by Alan Mendelson; 04-26-2016 at 06:12 PM.

  15. #15
    Please don't think that betting 100x odds is an easy way to maximize tier credits. If the dice are cold, you will go broke so fast that you will barely get rated. The "no house edge" concept, if it causes one to bet much more than they ordinarily would, or if it causes one to bet beyond their means and bankroll, is actually a detriment UNLESS the dice are immediately hot. Also, as Alan stated, the tier credits for table games are a mystery and seem to be diminishing. Without a box man and with less pit or floor men, the ratings are usually inaccurate as well.

    It is a great tool if used properly--but that is a big if. In any casino that does not have 100x odds, I place or buy my bets rather than take odds.

  16. #16
    What's really funny is that a lot of players -- and I include the WOV forum members -- get all excited about 100X odds and even 10X odds. But the reality is the average player in Vegas makes 2X odds.

    That time I was at Casino Royale with my high roller friend, we were at a jammed $5 table -- every position taken. He was the only player making 100X odds bets and I would guess that most of the players at the table had NO odds or single or double odds.

  17. #17
    Yes--even a pig like me only gets to the 100x odds if the roll is good. My initial odds on the pass line are $150 or $200. So if the pass line bet is $5.00, it will take 3 or 4 passes for my odds to get to the full $500. And as you know, that many passes does not occur that often. At that point, I have to increase my pass line to $10 to continue to increase.

    To start with $500 odds before the game gets hot you will be broke in minutes. And if you do that with a couple of come bets also is insanity.

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by regnis View Post
    To start with $500 odds before the game gets hot you will be broke in minutes. And if you do that with a couple of come bets also is insanity.
    that is pretty much how one of my buddies went thru $25K at Casino Royale in half an hour.

  19. #19
    What is the minimum bet at the Cromwell? Is it $5?

    The minimum bet is really what matters when deciding what odds to place.

    If I could find a 50c craps game with 100x odds, I would play it a lot, provided that I was being rated including the odds bets. This is because I would still only be betting $50.50 each time, so my losses would never be staggering.

    But yes, if you're at a $5 table, you would have to lay out $500 each time for 100x odds, and you would lose your ass if you went on a bad streak. Granted, you would be just as likely to WIN big if you're on a good streak, but the variance there would be monstrous, and I'm just not enough of a degenerate gambler to do that.

    However, if you're a high roller and like to bet big, then the best advice would be to a place like the Cromwell and place 100x odds bets as much as possible.
    Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com

  20. #20

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