Cromwell Starts 100X odds at craps

[RoeIncarnate]

To play high odds you have to have a bank roll that allows you to always play that high so that over a life time you have a chance of getting to the statistical loss.

IE $5 min with x100 odds is a $505 bet per resolution. Not many can afford to play that high. That would be a large chunk of my budget for trip.

Otherwise you are gambling that at the moment you place that crazy for you bet, the table gets hot or lucky.

[Dan Druff]

Called the Cromwell tonight during my radio show.

I was told that they do NOT rate your odds bets. So don't expect to get many tier credits if playing 100x odds.

Also...

- To date, nobody has yet done a 100x odds bet. He said, "Some were close", but didn't state how close.

- Table limits will sometimes be $5 minimum during slower periods.

[Alan Mendelson]

I'm not sure who you spoke to Dan or if you asked the question correctly. Caesars properties do include the odds bets in your rating. Caesars Palace includes odds in your rating.

Now the fine point: we don't know just how much weight the odds bet actually gets. In fact, we don't know what the flat bets get or what the hardways get. The actual "ratings" for ANY table bet at Caesars has never been published. And if someone has the formula I would love to see it.

It's very possible that they told you -- or meant -- that the odds have no impact on your comps or Reward Credits.

Here's how you can CONFIRM that your odds are included: at the end of your session ask what your "average bet" was. You can tell by that figure, your "average bet", if odds are included.

When I play at a $25 table, for example, I have an average bet reported of $235 -- and that includes my odds. Here's how I know: When I bet across the box numbers the bets told $130 or $135. My passline is $25. I usually bet double or triple odds which is $50 or $75. Add it up: $130 + 25 + 75 = $230. I rarely press, by the way.

Now the big question is what impact does that have on my Total Rewards score? I don't know. I don't know how much the odds are rated or not. But when I ask my host for my average bet -- yes, my average bet includes the odds.

Bottom line -- until we know how table bets are actually rated for tier points and reward credits it's all a moot point.

[Dan Druff]

I spoke to one of the guys who actually rates people.

When you were rated at $235, it was probably because the guy rating you was lazy and just counted up your bets, and didn't bother to look which ones were on odds. It's also possible that on 3x odds, it is so low that they don't bother subtracting those bets from rating.

But there's no way people are getting rated for their odds bets if they are doing 100x odds. A casino would be foolish to do this, as they would be giving away comps for virtual 0 EV play.

Even the guy I spoke to last night pointed that out to me, saying that they would be crazy to rate odds bets.

I believe him.

[Alan Mendelson]

Dan don't be ridiculous. Of course a floor man knows how to add up the bets that are rated. A floor man easily can see what chips are bet on odds.

Either you got the wrong info or their policy changed after I talked to them. But I just phoned the craps pit again -- yes they still count odds.

[a2a3dseddie]

They may count your odds bets, but are they earning much in the way of comps? I've heard casinos comp up to 40% of their theoretical win.

A $10 pass line bet with $1000 in odds wouldn't generate much in the way of comps if it were actually done this way.

The $10 pass line bet has a house edge of 1.41%, or a theoretical casino win of $0.141.

The $1000 in odds bets has a house edge of 0.

So, the overall theoretical house win is $0.141 per $1010 bet.

If there were 100 pass line bets resolved per hour, that would only result in a theoretical house win of $14.10. 40% of that is only $5.64 in earned comps.

Do they give out some discretionary comps based on actual losses?

[RS__]

They may count your odds bets, but are they earning much in the way of comps? I've heard casinos comp up to 40% of their theoretical win.

A $10 pass line bet with $1000 in odds wouldn't generate much in the way of comps if it were actually done this way.

The $10 pass line bet has a house edge of 1.41%, or a theoretical casino win of $0.141.

The $1000 in odds bets has a house edge of 0.

So, the overall theoretical house win is $0.141 per $1010 bet.

If there were 100 pass line bets resolved per hour, that would only result in a theoretical house win of $14.10. 40% of that is only $5.64 in earned comps.

Do they give out some discretionary comps based on actual losses?

Theoretical and expected value, to the house, are not the same game. If I play $100k coin in on 9/6 JOB, I can assure you my theoretical loss is not $540.

The casino figures the average player will spread their action on a craps table in a certain way. If one person puts much more action on the hardware and prop bets.....while another player has the same average bet, but he's betting pass line + come & odds....they will both be rated the same, even though their expected losses are different...their theoretical is going to be the same.

Do you REALLY think a boxman is sitting there "okay he's got $25 on the hard 6 and 8, with a HE or X%, $50 on the 4 & 10, that's got a Y% HE.....now he's got a $100 on the line, oh that's 1.41%....he's got $200 odds that's 0%....and $250 in the field, that's 2.7%...."?

Or maybe he just adds it all up, gets $700, plugs it into the computer / rating card, and the computer knows the average player will give up X% on his average bet (like 4%?).

[a2a3dseddie]

Theoretical and expected value, to the house, are not the same game. If I play $100k coin in on 9/6 JOB, I can assure you my theoretical loss is not $540.

Why is this? When calculating how much it "costs" to earn enough tier credits to reach Seven Stars, I read that's how Dan calculates it.

Do you REALLY think a boxman is sitting there "okay he's got $25 on the hard 6 and 8, with a HE or X%, $50 on the 4 & 10, that's got a Y% HE.....now he's got a $100 on the line, oh that's 1.41%....he's got $200 odds that's 0%....and $250 in the field, that's 2.7%...."?

Or maybe he just adds it all up, gets $700, plugs it into the computer / rating card, and the computer knows the average player will give up X% on his average bet (like 4%?).

I don't know how the ratings computer calculate bets/comps for craps players, but if you can get credit for making odds bets the same as someone betting hardways and prop bets, that sounds good to me!

[Alan Mendelson]

Total Rewards casinos -- ALL OF THEM -- have a system for rating craps players. All craps players are are designated into one of three categories:

1. Advanced which really means you make the lowest house-edge bets, come bets, pass line, odds, place 6 and 8
2. Medium which means you also place the box numbers
3. Third category -- not sure what name they give it -- but these players bet the field, hardways, mid-table high edge bets

When they "rate" you they rate your average bet (total bet) with your category. So for example, I might be a $235 average bet player in the #1 Advanced category. I am likely to receive FEWER COMPS and TIER POINTS than a player in the #3 category who has an average bet of $100.

I found this out when I complained that I bet more (in total) and play more hours than other Seven Stars players but the other Seven Stars players get bigger offers than I do. I found out the reason why: these other guys are betting big on hardways and I don't bet the hardways. In particular I complained that I got a $600 shopping spree when another Seven Stars craps player was getting $2500 for his shopping spree. The reason was he was betting $25 on each of the hardways and the 6 and 8 for $30 each. I was betting passline with odds plus the numbers for an average of about $235. His $160 action got him better comps, tier score and offers than my $235 of lower house edge bets.

[RS__]

Why is this? When calculating how much it "costs" to earn enough tier credits to reach Seven Stars, I read that's how Dan calculates it.

Because the casino doesn't expect players to play with a 99.54% return. Hell, Alan holds 3-card RF draws on 8/5 BP over high pairs. Other idiots may follow Rob's poor advice and hold 3-card RF draws over 3-of-a-kind. I guess we can thank Alan & Rob for promoting idiotic gambling strategies.

[Edit: number above should be $460, not $540.]

[Alan Mendelson]

Be careful about calling someone an idiot. Rob did hit a $100,000 royal breaking up three queens. I'd like to be an idiot like that. LOL

[regnis]

Total Rewards casinos -- ALL OF THEM -- have a system for rating craps players. All craps players are are designated into one of three categories:

1. Advanced which really means you make the lowest house-edge bets, come bets, pass line, odds, place 6 and 8
2. Medium which means you also place the box numbers
3. Third category -- not sure what name they give it -- but these players bet the field, hardways, mid-table high edge bets

When they "rate" you they rate your average bet (total bet) with your category. So for example, I might be a $235 average bet player in the #1 Advanced category. I am likely to receive FEWER COMPS and TIER POINTS than a player in the #3 category who has an average bet of $100.

I found this out when I complained that I bet more (in total) and play more hours than other Seven Stars players but the other Seven Stars players get bigger offers than I do. I found out the reason why: these other guys are betting big on hardways and I don't bet the hardways. In particular I complained that I got a $600 shopping spree when another Seven Stars craps player was getting $2500 for his shopping spree. The reason was he was betting $25 on each of the hardways and the 6 and 8 for $30 each. I was betting passline with odds plus the numbers for an average of about $235. His $160 action got him better comps, tier score and offers than my $235 of lower house edge bets.

I have often been told something similar to what Alan describes. However, I have always found that ratings in craps are rarely anywhere close to accurate. It seems to depend more of the mood of the person doing the rating and your relationship with him or her.

When my friend and I would play together, I had taught him everything and he followed my "system" other than he loved to pound the hard ways and craps. As such, his comps and rating should have been higher than mine. Yet for years and years, my rating was higher and my comps greater. There was no logical explanation as he made more "bad" bets then me and otherwise mirrored my play.

I have given up trying to get any kind of answer or explanation as to how they are rating me in craps and what that rating should provide in comps. I take what they give me--and that will have to do. Not worth the aggravation to pursue an explanation.

I have also consistently gotten conflicting answers from caesars on whether odds bets are counted.

[redietz]

I have never played craps, but the craps players I know echo what regnis said.

[Alan Mendelson]

Regnis for a long time Caesars didn't count Odds. But a couple years ago they started to include Odds.

No one in the craps pit has told me what I got in tier points or reward credits. They could only tell me which of the three categories I was in and my average bet.