On/off casino play strategy to generate offers

[Bill Yung]

Let's get real guys.

Nature abhors a vacuum. Everybody else is now trying to take Singer's place. (A big place to fill.)

[FABismonte]

Offers for the future are not earned. They are enticements to return. The computer tries to figure out the minimum it can offer you to get you to come back, and that's what it sends you.

Regular players need less enticement than one-time visitors. So they get better offers.

This seems to ring true based on my own experience. Around 2005, I used to visit Harrah's Reno. At first I had some nice offers. Then I would casino hop at Reno and once in a while get a buffet or just check my comp balance at a kiosk at Harrah's Reno. Because I was completely ignorant about HET's ADT calculation, I was surprised and disappointed to see that my offers were dwindling even though I was playing just as much and not abusing my comps. So I stopped even dropping by Harrah's.

Around 2010, my former host at Venetian moved over to Ceasars Palace, offering some room comps up front and gave me some nice back ended comps. I guess it was a "restart" as my wife and I played regularly there (on my card) and got some nice offers but over the years noticed that our offers started declining the more we stayed in Vegas. So we started going to MLife. Now my HET/CET offers are getting better again. This is especially true when my wife and I alternate using stays/comps when we visit CET casinos. She is Diamond and we use her offers until my get better (and hers get worse). Then we switch to mine until hers gets better. So I believe that Total Rewards computer is programed to only offer the minimum offers to entice you back -- with only a partial correlation on how much action we put in.

FAB

[Alan Mendelson]

There is no question that "missing players" get incentives to come back. And the bigger the player the better the incentives to return.

Dan posted that a player ran $10,000 thru video poker. That is not a player who will trigger the free play offers.

Reality check: $10,000 run thru VP earns AT BEST 1,000 TIER POINTS. That is not a player who would be given several free play offers of the size Dan mentioned.

Now.... if this player LOST $10,000 then yes, these free play offers would follow.

Dan only says this player lost more than $1,000. The question is how much more?

If he got successive offers of $500 from tight wad CET I wouldn't be surprised to find out he lost all $10,000.

Sorry, I can't believe the free play offers quoted in the original post. Only an error could explain offers that large.

[RS__]

If Alan doesn't believe this.....he'd have a total shit fit if he heard about the really good stuff! Lol.

[jbjb]

If Alan doesn't believe this.....he'd have a total shit fit if he heard about the really good stuff! Lol.

Now if Todd said the guy saw 19 yos in a row, he'd believe that in a heartbeat!

[a2a3dseddie]

About 10 years or so ago, I played quite a bit at the Venetian. I was receiving some pretty good offers for rooms, tournaments and up to $700 in free play. Then Sheldon Adelson decided EVERYONE was basically overcomped, and my offers were non-existent for years, so I stopped playing there. Well, last summer I ran some money through their slot machines while I was waiting to get onto one of their poker tables. I lost maybe $300? Well, my offers have returned. I can now get a comped room for 3 nights with $100 in free play per month. It's not much but it's something.

[redietz]

What concerns me is that a knowledgeable sports bettor like Redietz bet $10,000 on a boxing "exhibition" with all of its inherent risks (cheating, drugs, fixes, promoter control etc.)

Does seem a tad out of character, eh? Good catch, regnis.

[Bill Yung]

If Alan doesn't believe this.....he'd have a total shit fit if he heard about the really good stuff! Lol.

And Hitler had a "secret weapon".

I'm here to laugh at the antics of gamblers. Why are you big winners, the famous of the earth, here?

[Dan Druff]

I moved the RC multiplier discussion to its own thread in the Total Rewards and MLife forum. Please post TR-specific threads/questions in that forum.

New thread is here: http://vegascasinotalk.com/forum/sho...d-others-don-t

I started this "Caesars offer" topic in this forum because it's of general interest regarding casino promotions, and not really about the Total Rewards program (even though it's specifically about Caesars).

[Dan Druff]

There is no question that "missing players" get incentives to come back. And the bigger the player the better the incentives to return.

Dan posted that a player ran $10,000 thru video poker. That is not a player who will trigger the free play offers.

Reality check: $10,000 run thru VP earns AT BEST 1,000 TIER POINTS. That is not a player who would be given several free play offers of the size Dan mentioned.

Now.... if this player LOST $10,000 then yes, these free play offers would follow.

Dan only says this player lost more than $1,000. The question is how much more?

If he got successive offers of $500 from tight wad CET I wouldn't be surprised to find out he lost all $10,000.

Sorry, I can't believe the free play offers quoted in the original post. Only an error could explain offers that large.

"Rick" lost about $1400.

Alan, once again I am going to tell you that you need to open your mind and stop assuming that casino offers are based solely upon coin-in and/or losses.

Casino offers are based upon various parameters which are set to draw in the maximum number of desired gamblers. They are automatically tailored for each individual, based upon observed behavior patterns of similar players.

Casinos have come to the conclusion that it is much harder to draw in the occasional middle-limit player (whether because he doesn't gamble much or because he's loyal to another casino), while it is much easier to get a regular player to return. Addicted gamblers will keep coming back anyway, and you only need to present them with something small compared to the action they put in, and they will find an excuse to visit. Occasional visitors need a lot harder of a nudge, so their offers are better.

If someone runs $10k of coin-in through a middle-limit ($1-$5 per credit) VP machine, that is someone the casino would like to see again.

If they know he's reliably coming several times per year, they don't need to do much to entice him.

If they think maybe he just passes by and plays occasionally, they need to give him a reason to visit again.

It's that simple. None of this has to do with wins, losses, or tier credits. Losses only come into play when someone has REALLY unusual losses for the amount they play, to where the computer might assume they lack skill. For example, a video poker player who loses $3000 after $10k coin-in might get some increased offers (provided that's his only session), because this might be a player who has no idea of the correct strategy to utilize. But short of that, wins and losses are irrelevant when generating offers.

Alan, CET has only been a "tight wad" with you because you're a regular player, and they realized that with MOST players of your type, they don't have to give huge offers in order to draw you in.

They are even tighter with me because I'm both overcomped and do regular no-play stays in Vegas, so they feel they don't really want my business there. (In other markets, though, I'm actually a pretty good customer.) It would be interesting to see what would happen in Vegas if I were to shut down for a year (not play, not stay) and then start playing again, but that's not practical for my needs, so I'll never get to try that.

[Alan Mendelson]

Here's the bottom line. He lost $1400 -- at least that's what he told you. Each free play offer requires a trip back to the casino. Who is the winner here? If you think the casino is the loser and the player is the winner they've got you sucked in.

[Dan Druff]

Here's the bottom line. He lost $1400 -- at least that's what he told you. Each free play offer requires a trip back to the casino. Who is the winner here? If you think the casino is the loser and the player is the winner they've got you sucked in.

Rick showed me his CET won-loss statement from 2014 in early 2015 when he was at the tail end of the offers he redeemed (which he milked for thousands). It was exactly as he described. This guy does not lie. Trust me in that I really do have the entire story.

Yes, the casino is the loser here.

That's the whole point of advantage play.

If you act like an average customer and do what the casino expects, you will lose, barring an unusual stroke of luck (such as hitting a huge jackpot).

If you understand the casino's motivations and actions, and then tailor your own behavior to maximize your position against them, then you will typically come out ahead.

This isn't even a huge advantage play. Nobody will get rich off of doing this, but they will earn some nice comps, freeplay, and perks, and is perfect if you have a husband or wife who doesn't otherwise gamble, but accompanies you on trips.

[Alan Mendelson]

So this was 2014? In 2014, pre-bankruptcy, I was getting $2500 or more in free play monthly at Caesars Palace. Plus I got all the perks with 7 Stars.

It was a different world then. Those offers don't exist now.

Your report is "old news" and no longer relevant.

End of thread.

[regnis]

If you act like an average customer and do what the casino expects, you will lose, barring an unusual stroke of luck (such as hitting a huge jackpot).

If you understand the casino's motivations and actions, and then tailor your own behavior to maximize your position against them, then you will typically come out ahead.

Is this Rob Singer or Dan Druff speaking???

[Dan Druff]

So this was 2014? In 2014, pre-bankruptcy, I was getting $2500 or more in free play monthly at Caesars Palace. Plus I got all the perks with 7 Stars.

It was a different world then. Those offers don't exist now.

Your report is "old news" and no longer relevant.

End of thread.

Come on, Alan.

Why does this claim bother you so much? I promise you that it's true and I've verified it.

Read my story again. It BEGINS in 2014.

The latest chapter -- the return of Rick's freeplay -- occurred this month.

[Alan Mendelson]

What bothers me is that you are suggesting that casino offers and free play gives players an advantage. it does not.

Free play and offers are nothing more than an incentive and a lure to get you to gamble.

In general, free play and offers never will be worth more than what you lose. Now, with that said, there might be exceptions for players who lose very little or who actually profit. But to suggest to players that they should play for comps and play for offers is irresponsible.

If you happen to play for recreation and happen to win money and happen to get offers and comps and free play then you are doing great. But to suggest to people that their play will lead to advantageous offers whether they be free play or cruises or comps is very dangerous.

Not everyone who reads the forum is an "advantage player." I would suggest that most readers are casual, recreational "real people" who want the best advice about going to Vegas and casinos in general. Telling them to play for comps is absurd. Suggesting that they should have $10,000 of coin in for some kind of free play scheme THAT DOES NOT MAKE THE PLAYER WHOLE is irresponsible.

[RS__]

What bothers me is that you are suggesting that casino offers and free play gives players an advantage. it does not.

Free play and offers are nothing more than an incentive and a lure to get you to gamble.

In general, free play and offers never will be worth more than what you lose. Now, with that said, there might be exceptions for players who lose very little or who actually profit. But to suggest to players that they should play for comps and play for offers is irresponsible.

If you happen to play for recreation and happen to win money and happen to get offers and comps and free play then you are doing great. But to suggest to people that their play will lead to advantageous offers whether they be free play or cruises or comps is very dangerous.

Not everyone who reads the forum is an "advantage player." I would suggest that most readers are casual, recreational "real people" who want the best advice about going to Vegas and casinos in general. Telling them to play for comps is absurd. Suggesting that they should have $10,000 of coin in for some kind of free play scheme THAT DOES NOT MAKE THE PLAYER WHOLE is irresponsible.

Shit like this is why people don't take you seriously.

[Dan Druff]

What bothers me is that you are suggesting that casino offers and free play gives players an advantage. it does not.

Free play and offers are nothing more than an incentive and a lure to get you to gamble.

In general, free play and offers never will be worth more than what you lose. Now, with that said, there might be exceptions for players who lose very little or who actually profit. But to suggest to players that they should play for comps and play for offers is irresponsible.

If you happen to play for recreation and happen to win money and happen to get offers and comps and free play then you are doing great. But to suggest to people that their play will lead to advantageous offers whether they be free play or cruises or comps is very dangerous.

Not everyone who reads the forum is an "advantage player." I would suggest that most readers are casual, recreational "real people" who want the best advice about going to Vegas and casinos in general. Telling them to play for comps is absurd. Suggesting that they should have $10,000 of coin in for some kind of free play scheme THAT DOES NOT MAKE THE PLAYER WHOLE is irresponsible.

Uhh... I'm not sure what you're responding to here.

I gave some advice on how to run some limited coin-in, get a bunch of nice offers, stop playing, and then restart the whole thing a year or so later.

I never stated that this advice will make you rich, nor was I guaranteeing that you will come out ahead if you do it. It is likely that you will come out ahead, though, provided that you can take the time to redeem the offers when they are generated.

I don't even do this myself, because I stay at CET properties too often for this to work for me.

This is ideal if you travel with a wife, girlfriend, husband, boyfriend, mother, etc, who otherwise never gambles.

Never have I presented this as guaranteed money.

I posted about the way the CET offer system seems to work for new and occasional players, and gave some suggestions to get the most out of it.

[Dan Druff]

Is this Rob Singer or Dan Druff speaking???

Strangely enough, Rob's general advice of "Don't do what the casinos are expecting you to do, or you'll lose" and "Hosts are only there to extract money out of you, they're not your friends" are actually GOOD PIECES OF ADVICE!

Unfortunately, Rob implements this advice incorrectly.

He derides APs as math-theory-obsessed geeks whose tactics fail in reality, while pushing a system which clearly will lose in anything but the extreme short run (and even usually then).

But it's indeed true that if you don't think outside the box when it comes to casinos, they will fleece you over time.

[Alan Mendelson]

Dan thanks for adding that this plan is not guaranteed money. That should have been in your first post.

$10,000 coin in is way above the gaming budget for an average Vegas visitor. Consider that the average visitor has a $600 budget -- to stretch that to $10K coin-in would require a lot of luck at video poker.

RS__ I no longer take you seriously.