Why people are not sucessful at DI

[Alan Mendelson]

Here's where all of the critics of Dice Influencing and Dice Control can state their reasons why DI is not possible or why people can't become dice influencers or dice controllers.

I'll start, because I've been playing craps for 20+ years and I have a pretty good handle on what's involved in throwing dice.

Here are my top 3 reasons why it's hard or impossible to influence dice:

1. Most people don't have the fine motor skills. To influence dice you must be able to toss two dice to a predetermined point on the table layout with just the right amount of pressure (force, speed) and control of the dice movement in the air, so that they gently hit the back wall and do not bounce off the back wall with too much rebound or movement.

2. Repeat of #1.

3. Repeat of #2.

[redietz]

I have friends who, as you suggest, Alan, practice and toss as if there might be something to it because doing so doesn't cost anything.

The main reason I see DI being problematic, even if it exists, is that table sizes and composition vary, so one would presumably have to learn various throws for various tables, which seems like mission impossible. Then one would have to define a table as this category of table or that and then tailor your throws to that table.

I have never played craps, but the nearest analogy that comes to mind is shooting hoops on different size and height basketball rims. Becoming expert at regulation height is great, but it would only crudely translate to other heights and compositions of rims.

[Alan Mendelson]

Excellent points, redietz, which is why it makes no sense to buy a table for home practice or even one of those practice rigs that the DI schools sell. I've often said practicing your throw on your bed with a sheet of aluminum foil to show how the dice are hitting is all you need... because once you get to the casino the surface, length, bounce are all going to be different. Even when tables are the same dimensions (Caesars and Bellagio now have all uniform craps tables) the bounce is different on every table. And don't forget those pesky chips that get in the way.

As a side note, on my last trip to Bellagio I only needed the 9 for the ALL. The point was ten and one die hit the puck and a seven showed. I'm not saying that the puck caused me to 7-out, but there are obstacles on the table that get in the way even if you have a controlled shot. So not only must your shot be controlled, but you have to control it so that the obstacles on the table don't impact the dice.

This is one reason why even DIs don't have rolls that last forever. Eventually even a controlled dice roll is going to hit a chip, and as rolls continue, more chips show up on the table.

[regnis]

I have remained silent on this because the subject seems to create a lot of argument. For a period of about 15 years, I played craps almost every day--for 6-12 hours per day. I learned to play craps as a young child as my father tried out various systems at our kitchen table. My first time in Vegas at 21 I didn't even play craps because I knew you had to become a good shooter to have a chance. So I practiced, and practiced, and practiced. But going to Vegas 5 or 6 times a year wasn't enough to develop a controlled throw, even with all the practice.

When they finally legalized gambling in my home town, I was able to perfect my throw through constant repetition. That is when we decided to make a living in craps. And it is not easy but we did. There were days when I was really on that everyone just passed the dice to me and no one else threw them. As I have mentioned before, my partner would stand in the opposite corner to where i was shooting so that the pass line odds bet was not in my way.

Yes there are different sized tables and tables with different bounce and I had a different throw for each of those. As some casinos increased the bounce and/or design, I had to eliminate those casinos as I could not control the dice there. I was barred from one casino here--the one where I played most regularly, and can only play VP there. My favorite tables were the old long tables at the Flamingo. I don't even know if they still have those as I haven't played there in years.

It was a long tiresome grind, and I was still maintaining my regular job as well. Eventually, it became too much for me and I stopped playing craps. If I do play once in a while now for fun, I try to throw like I used to but I would be fooling myself to think I can still do it. I am maybe slightly better than a random shooter at this point in time.

Long and short of this---I firmly believe in dice control and did in fact do it for years. Like any other motor skill, it takes practice and repetition. You can't just walk into a casino and expect to be able to do it.

Historic rolls: 1 hour and 40 minutes at Flamingo--net win over $700,000. I rolled 18 8's.
1 hour 20 minutes at Flamingo-my first big hand. I was a $5 better. $70,000

[regnis]

One humorous anecdote. I tore the collateral ligament in my thumb playing hockey (in english this means your thumb is hanging down by a thread and the pain is so bad you wish you could just cut it off). I didn't want to miss 3 or 4 months of craps while I had a cast on my hand. I found that I could still throw the dice with the cast on as I am a fingertip thrower.

One casino refused to let me throw as they determined that I was using a foreign tool by virtue of my hand being in a cast. I filed a complaint with the gaming board and threatened the casino with a lawsuit for discrimination against a disabled person. They were forced to let me throw. That same casino ultimately barred me from throwing the dice.

[redietz]

Thanks for providing that info, regnis. Much appreciated. It's good to hear, as my one friend does seem to have a clue and is outperforming randomness, but it is hard to track.

He would rule out certain tables, but he's not really that concerned with table size, as position seems more important.

[regnis]

I've been trying to tell women for years that size doesn't matter.

[Chimp]

I've been trying to tell women for years that size doesn't matter.

Uh, yea....sure...

[Rob.Singer]

Uh, yea....sure...

I certainly agree....

[Alan Mendelson]

Chimp are you still a craps virgin? Are you still waiting for me to take your virginity?

Regnis thanks for posting all that. Great stuff.

Redietz when your friend says position means more to him than the size of the table it's because if you stand next to the stickman you are closest to the back wall. Being next to the stickman at a long table can be the same distance as standing at the end of a short table.

[alpax]

My one reason that it is not probable for a person to be successful at DI

"The player will not be able to acquire the exact craps table specifications (length, surface, etc.) as the one at the casino where they are trying to beat at, so they cannot practice rigorously to get the throwing motion down".

[regnis]

To some extent that is true. But stand there betting minimums for 12 hours and after a while you will be able to adjust your throw to accommodate the distinctions of that table. You must first have your "grooved swing" from whatever your practice source is. But then the adjustment is not that hard.

I want to make one thing clear. No one, or at least I am not saying that you get better results every time. They are still weird shaped projectiles. The original group of dice controllers were only looking for a small percentage advantage which, along with a conservative betting approach, would result in small steady profits. If I want small steady profits I can go to my regular job. So I used a much more aggressive approach to betting which I have mentioned in other threads.

Like a pitcher or a golfer, some days I just didn't have it and I would stop throwing. I would regroup and get my swing back in order over the next few days. On days that I knew I had it, we pounded!!!

All those years I tried to teach it to my gambling partner but he just couldn't do it. He would make a few good throws and get a roll started. But as soon as nerves set in or he got excited the dice went all over the place and he'd seven out. On the other hand, I am a complete stone faced no emotion can't read my face kind of gambler and I could keep my nerves under control. Other people would get mad at me cause I wouldn't talk or high five or any of that nonsense when I was on a roll. I completely zone out. And the casinos would try all the usual distractions. New bank. Change the shift. Lower table limits to let more people in and crowd me. Hit the wall BS even tho I was hitting the wall. Intentional miss pays or non pays on hard ways, etc. You have to be mentally prepared.

[Chimp]

Chimp are you still a craps virgin? Are you still waiting for me to take your virginity?.

Yes Alan. I'm still waiting for you.

[Alan Mendelson]

My one reason that it is not probable for a person to be successful at DI

"The player will not be able to acquire the exact craps table specifications (length, surface, etc.) as the one at the casino where they are trying to beat at, so they cannot practice rigorously to get the throwing motion down".

Actually you can practice the throwing motion. The "problem" is knowing how much force to use to reach the end of the table with a controlled throw so that the dice do not bounce too much after reaching the back wall.

If you've ever read the book by Sharpshooter he addresses this. He says you use the come-out roll to get a "feel" for the table. Of course the real strategy is to be prepared to lose a few hands (turns with the dice) until you have a good feel for the length and bounce of the table.

If you play at the same casino, and at the same table, at the same table position, "half the battle" is won.

However, we still come back to the #1 point that I posted above: does the shooter have the fine motor skills necessary? I see people shoot the dice all the time after setting the dice and trying to use a controlled throw. But in reality their throw is NOT controlled. The dice do not fly in the air together. The dice do not bounce off the table together. The dice do not hit the table "flat" and might hit on the points of the dice. Too many people consider themselves to be DIs when in reality they are nothing but random shooters because their "control" is limited to what amounts to keeping their dice on the table.

I've watched the videos of so-called DIs and I can tell you they are NOT controlling the dice. Look at them yourself and you will see the dice are not parallel, they are not hitting the table simultaneously, they are not hitting the wall simultaneously or even at the same level or with the same pitch.

Until someone can master that particular skill set -- and you can practice throwing dice on your bed at home -- there is no chance for a controlled throw on ANY table.

Even the videos of Golden Touch Craps do NOT show what I consider to be a controlled throw.

Look at this video:

At 3:11 the dice are not parallel, and at 4:07 the dice are not parallel. And that is the Dominator shooting and captured on video in a demonstration video and even THESE rolls are not what is needed for a controlled throw.

Frank's narration is correct, but even Dominator isn't doing what Frank calls for.