Ultimate 4 of a Kind Bonus Poker at Tropicana LV

[Dan Druff]

How many hands must one play to realize the expectations listed above?

There's no answer to that.

The more hands, the closer to expectation you get.

It is true at higher variance games that it is more likely you will run far below or far above expectation, but that doesn't mean you should dismiss expected return as theoretical mumbo jumbo.

I can respect the argument to stay away from high variance games. In fact, I now do that myself for the most part.

However, I cannot accept the argument that a 7-5 game isn't vastly inferior to the equivalent 8-5 game, simply because "you are going to win or lose based upon the big hands".

Every time you hit a full house on a 7-5 game, the casino is literally stealing 5 credits out of your pocket that you should have had.

Let's say I sat next to Rob when he played a $5/credit 8-5 game and demanded he hand me $25 every time he hit a full house. He would feel the pain of that each time he hit the full house. If Rob hit 8 full houses during his session, and I showed him the $200 he gave me, I bet he'd be pissed and feel like I took advantage of him. However, he seems to have no problem simply playing a 7-5 game. Since there's not a person physically grabbing $25 from him on each full house, he doesn't truly feel what a mistake he's making.

[jbjb]

Other than you, these guys are just high rolling ploppies. Loud mouths who think they know something but just have no friggin clue!

[Alan Mendelson]

The downside of single-play $1 machines like this is the slowness in running tier credits if trying to earn Diamond/Seven Stars. At 500 hands per hour, it would take over 8 hours just to earn 2500 base tiers, and over 16 hours to earn 5000 base tiers.

Are you really playing just to earn Seven Stars? If you were, why not just go to a high limit slot machine. Caesars has a room full of $100/coin slots. You'll get your 7 Stars in no time.

[Alan Mendelson]

Other than you, these guys are just high rolling ploppies. Loud mouths who think they know something but just have no friggin clue!

Why does a savvy, winning player like you take the time to insult so many others here on this forum? Is there some bonus you earn among the "savvy, winning player crowd" that you get for hurling insults?

[Dan Druff]

Are you really playing just to earn Seven Stars? If you were, why not just go to a high limit slot machine. Caesars has a room full of $100/coin slots. You'll get your 7 Stars in no time.

Slots have a horrible return, and I don't want the variance of $100/credit even with a good return.

I don't ONLY play for Seven Stars, but that's one of the main goals.

[Alan Mendelson]

From what I understand the $100 slots have an excellent return that might even rival video poker. And it takes less coin in to score the points. And you'd earn more reward credits.

[coach belly]

How many hands must one play to realize the expectations listed above?

There's no answer to that.

The more hands, the closer to expectation you get.

I see...approximately how many hands must one play before the difference between 99.37% and 99.96% manifests itself?

A ballpark figure will do...your best educated guess.

[coach belly]

Why does a savvy, winning player like you take the time to insult so many others here on this forum? Is there some bonus you earn among the "savvy, winning player crowd" that you get for hurling insults?

As if winning would not be satisfying enough, he also needs to deride others for losing.

That's an unlikely behavior for a savvy winning player...that's clearly not how winners behave...that's how losers behave.

[regnis]

As if winning would not be satisfying enough, he also needs to deride others for losing.

That's an unlikely behavior for a savvy winning player...that's clearly not how winners behave...that's how losers behave.

I find that anyone that takes joy in calling others"ploppies" is usually a prototype ploppy his or her self.

[regnis]

Apparently, there is a "mythical" $1 Single-Line Ultimate 4 Of A Kind 7/5 Bonus Poker machine (99.96%) at Horseshoe Hammond (Ind.) that offers full tier credits ($10 for 1). The machine was still on the casino floor as of March 2015.

Here you can see the lucky player picked the "Joker" in the bonus round and won 3,996 credits + 125 for the quad 5's.

Nerakil--it must in fact be mythical. I scouted it out today although the picture I took of the pay table failed. It is the newfangled 50 for full house but only 5 for 2 pair table. I don't know what it was previously but that is what it is today. No one evr seems to be playing that game.

[redietz]

From what I understand the $100 slots have an excellent return that might even rival video poker. And it takes less coin in to score the points. And you'd earn more reward credits.

Nobody knows what the return on any given slot machine is. It could be 75% one day and 99% the next. Legally, they are required to pay back 75%.

So playing a slot machine would be an insane way to try to get Seven Stars. You'd have absolutely no idea what the payback on any machine was on any given day. Tough to do math that way.

[Alan Mendelson]

The return on slots increases with denomination. I thought this was widely known?

[Dan Druff]

The return on slots increases with denomination. I thought this was widely known?

Yes, this is typically true.

However, slots returns still suck. Aside from slot machines with a temporarily high jackpot (which in fact can be +EV until they hit, albeit very high variance), you will never find one paying 99% or more.

[Rob.Singer]

Yes, this is typically true.

However, slots returns still suck. Aside from slot machines with a temporarily high jackpot (which in fact can be +EV until they hit, albeit very high variance), you will never find one paying 99% or more.

This is typically untrue. IGT and casinos regularly put in banks of slot machines with signs saying "97% payout or better" or the like, with at least one of the machines programmed at over 99%--depending on the number of machines in the bank. IGT explained this years ago at the Gaming Expo.

[redietz]

This is typically untrue. IGT and casinos regularly put in banks of slot machines with signs saying "97% payout or better" or the like, with at least one of the machines programmed at over 99%--depending on the number of machines in the bank. IGT explained this years ago at the Gaming Expo.

Rob, I'm surprised you, as a cynic, would buy that this is an ongoing likelihood. The legal requirement for slots is 75% return.

Higher denomination slots generally do correlate to higher paybacks, but there is no legal requirement for such. Paperwork has to be done to switch paybacks, last I read, but that can be done in a day, and there exist some (a minority) server based slots whose payback can be changed from a central location.

The difference in paybacks between quarter and high denom slots generally runs two to five percent, but again, there are no guarantees. Nothing prevents a casino from setting slots at 99% mid-week and 75% on a holiday weekend. Sitting down at a high denom slot is no guarantee of a higher payout.

[Alan Mendelson]

Various state gaming agencies publish payback returns for slots. You can easily find these reports online. They show that $5 slots have a higher payback than $1 slots and they have a higher payback than 25-cent slots, and so on.

I've never seen a payout schedule for $100 slots but it makes sense that they would have a higher payback than the others.

Of course when I play a Video Poker game with a 99.17% theoretical return I rarely get that. I either hit big and go home or lose my bankroll for the trip. Right, Rob? When was the last time you had a 99.17% return?

[redietz]

The return on slots increases with denomination. I thought this was widely known?

This is generally true, but not legally required. You have no way of knowing if any given high denom machine is paying better than a low denom machine five feet away. I thought Rob would jump all over this, as it's in his wheelhouse for arguing that long-term (or high volume) averages aren't helpful.

The city-wide average returns over a month for high denom slots are higher than for low denom slots, but any given high denom machine may pay less than a low denom machine. It's impossible to tell, although odds are with you.

[redietz]

Alan, any given slot machine can be set for any return between 75% and 99%. There is no advertised return on the machine. That's much different than a vp machine that advertises its return with a paytable.

Just because city-wide returns for high denom slots are better than for low denom slots, that doesn't tell you anything about the one machine you sit down at out of thousands. It could be set for 76%.

[Dan Druff]

A casino would never program a slot machine to return 99%+ unless it was part of a promotion to get people in the door.

If there were such a promotion, they would heavily advertise it. This would be a slot player's dream.

There is no such thing as a casino setting a random machine to return 99%. They have no reason to do that. Slot addicts will keep playing with a much lower return.

The goal for the casino is to provide the lowest return possible which is high enough to where the addicts keep coming back to play again, believing themselves to have a chance to win. 99% is WAY above that threshold.

[jbjb]

Of course when I play a Video Poker game with a 99.17% theoretical return I rarely get that. I either hit big and go home or lose my bankroll for the trip.

Because you aren't dealt every single possible hand and then play each optionally and get every possible different combination on the draw in one sitting. If you did, you'd get that exact 99.17%.