Palms Becomes a Stations Property

[redietz]

I just received an email explaining how my Palms slot club points will be transferred into Boarding Pass points at a 400 to 1000 ratio, which is correct and fair. It's a break, in a way, because it greatly broadens where I can use my previously earned Palms points. I like the Red Rock buffet, for example, and Palace's coffee shop. I will probably still use some points at the Palms, however, as the points can be used in the theaters, and the Palms buffet is vastly improved.

However, what the email doesn't tell you is that your Palms points, which never expired, are now vulnerable to expiration if you don't tally points on your Boarding Pass every three or six months (not sure which).

So it's good for people to know and underline this. Palms points were pretty much good in perpetuity. Not so Boarding Pass points.

[Dan Druff]

Boarding Pass is also a crap program.

I earned Chairman at one point, and my offers were pretty lame. I quit playing there after that.

[redietz]

Waaaay back when, when the Palms first opened, the sports book was independent and its comp program was part of the normal casino-wide slots club. So when you bet sports at the Palms, it automatically registered on your slot card. At the time, you basically got $1 for every $400 bet, which was one of the better programs in the city (not as good as LVH or Circus-Circus, however). The race comps were very good at the time. I don't bet horses, but I assume it was more like a dollar for every $50 wagered or something like that.

Anyway, it was nice to have sports comps that were good casino-wide and automatically fed into your regular slot account. Most places had a comp system for race/sports, but not as generous, and not necessarily good anywhere in the casino.

From that perspective, Palms had a good comp system. From any other perspective, not so much. And it's gotten much worse over the years. Basically, today, none of the good machines qualify for comps and the comp rate sucks, anyway.

When Cantor took over the sports book, the sports betting no longer accrued into your regular slot club, so my comp account went into stasis. I'd play enough so they knew I was alive once or twice a year, but that was about it.

So what Dan is saying is correct. From my perspective, however, I have to add that the CET comp program is also crap, as they have no real idea what they are doing in terms of assigning comps for sports betting. And I have no motivation to play terrible pay tables for free rooms and such, as I simply don't appreciate such things. Stick me in a Budget Suites (preferably not next to the occasional meth lab), and I'm good.

In a strange sense, I have some affinity for Rob's position on CET comps. I feel like my gambling behavior is iron-clad in that I don't gamble to lose money, ever, even if the prospect of free rooms and meals creates the possibility or illusion that it's a positive sum game.

[Alan Mendelson]

No one should ever play for comps.

[regnis]

Only way to get any kind of reasonable comps for horses in vegas is to befriend, or at least introduce yourself to whoever's in charge. Tell them how much your range of play is and negotiate the comp. Otherwise you get next to nothing. Since I have a free room, I just try to get the meals I want or a show that I may be interested in.

[RS__]

I just hope stations doesn't totally fuck up the palms. Nothing like getting a free meal once a week.

[Rob.Singer]

What a lot of players don't realize is that reaching the upper 2 levels at Stations yields diminishing returns in comps. I've watched these people whine about not feeling "that special" for years in comparison to the heavy play they give them. They expect to get the same or more that they got years ago, and that's just not gonna happen any more.

However, certain mid-level players are the ones who make hay at Stations these days. They're smart enough not to overplay their welcome, while giving the perception they play for points and status and yearn to be up at the top.

These players clubs have gotten more & more stingy as time goes on, that's for sure. And the only players who do well with them are the savviest ones who know how, when, & where to manipulate/take advantage of them the best. Stations is not difficult to figure out if you don't allow yourself to get blinded by President and Chairman levels. But most won't; thus, the bashing.

[Dan Druff]

What a lot of players don't realize is that reaching the upper 2 levels at Stations yields diminishing returns in comps. I've watched these people whine about not feeling "that special" for years in comparison to the heavy play they give them. They expect to get the same or more that they got years ago, and that's just not gonna happen any more.

However, certain mid-level players are the ones who make hay at Stations these days. They're smart enough not to overplay their welcome, while giving the perception they play for points and status and yearn to be up at the top.

These players clubs have gotten more & more stingy as time goes on, that's for sure. And the only players who do well with them are the savviest ones who know how, when, & where to manipulate/take advantage of them the best. Stations is not difficult to figure out if you don't allow yourself to get blinded by President and Chairman levels. But most won't; thus, the bashing.

Believe it or not, Rob is partially correct, but doesn't realize why he is.

It is true that tier status does not determine your offers. That is one of the most common misconception when it comes to casino reward programs.

In reality, your ADT and other factors determine your offers, while your tier status only determines your guaranteed benefits.

It is true that lower tier card holders sometimes get better offers. The trick is to make the marketing computer think that your play is sporadic but heavy. That is, you're not addicted to gambling, but you gamble a lot once you come down there.

If you regularly show up and grind your way to the higher tiers, your offers won't be as good, especially if you do so at higher EV machines.

The funny thing is that Rob mocked me when I posted about my "on-off" method of earning comps, where you play heavily for a short time, stop playing for a few months, wait for good offers to roll in, milk them without playing further until they stop, and then let 18 months pass and repeat the whole thing again. This actually works, but Rob doubted it and mocked me for posting it.

[Alan Mendelson]

If you regularly show up and grind your way to the higher tiers, your offers won't be as good, especially if you do so at higher EV machines.

The funny thing is that Rob mocked me when I posted about my "on-off" method of earning comps, where you play heavily for a short time, stop playing for a few months, wait for good offers to roll in, milk them without playing further until they stop, and then let 18 months pass and repeat the whole thing again. This actually works, but Rob doubted it and mocked me for posting it.

So, I'm curious. What kind of offers are you getting now with your "on-off" method? Tell me your offers and I'll tell you mine. And perhaps others will share what they're getting. Let's see what is the best strategy. I'm open to finding out.

[RS__]

So, I'm curious. What kind of offers are you getting now with your "on-off" method? Tell me your offers and I'll tell you mine. And perhaps others will share what they're getting. Let's see what is the best strategy. I'm open to finding out.

I swear you're years behind. What's next, you're going to question whether this "new" blackjack system called "card counting" works?

[Rob.Singer]

It seems that in addition to Dan's continuing unsupportable assertion that he is "overcomped" at CET, he has just as silly a notion on what it is that drives offers at different casinos.

For years I met with casino execs to discuss this issue in order to write about it, and for years it was always the same simple, sensible answer: A player's offers are nothing more than a direct result of denominational coin-in over time, and offers generated by the marketing computers are solely based on this fact.

What Dan and many of these self-proclaimed "AP's" are being confused about is two-fold: first, this loosely used concept of ADT, which seems to go hand-in-hand with their misunderstanding about advantage play in general. This has nothing to do with the offers, and everything to do with being an analytical tool used in determining whether or not to deny or allow verbal requests by the many, many players who constantly think their play level should be earning them more than they're getting. You'll see so many of the know-it-all slot club hounds claiming how "comps & offers have got SOMETHING to do with being figured on your ADT, but only the casino knows how it's being calculated and they won't release any of the details". Which, of course, is totally false. These people toss around the ADT word when they want to sound smart but in reality, know nothing.

Again, I repeat---the best method of getting the most lucrative offers is to stop playing at one place or within one chain regularly, wait at least 6 months to a year, then go back and put through some higher than normal level play for 30 minutes or so.

Lastly, whether the machine is 94% or 102% and/or whether you win constantly or not, it won't affect your offers in the least. You may be restricted in how points are accumulated because of payback percentage because that's a method casinos use to slap down the so-called advantage players and their big mouths. But what winning does--and rightfully/sensibly so--is that it may get you banned from playing at certain casinos. I've been banned from playing at five NV. casinos over my time, and it'll be interesting to see how South Point reacts. I just got home yesterday from mugging them for another $3800--my only time back since the $25k+ spot I hit them with in early June. This weekend we're headed up to the Reno Italian Festival held on the street outside of the Eldorado. I haven't been allowed to play in there for four years if I want points or comps and I'm not going up there to play anyway.

The point is, people need to know what they're talking about if they expect to be informative, and they need to have the adequate experience. I think you know what I mean.

[RS__]

Rob, I'm curious, during your "AP years" what kind of plays were you on? What kind of advantage did you have? Hourly? Games (only VP or others)? And what generated your advantage? Of course, this is all theoretical arm-chair-AP nonsense, but I'm curious what you were playing.

[redietz]

Only way to get any kind of reasonable comps for horses in vegas is to befriend, or at least introduce yourself to whoever's in charge. Tell them how much your range of play is and negotiate the comp. Otherwise you get next to nothing. Since I have a free room, I just try to get the meals I want or a show that I may be interested in.

For sports, some places have formal set-ups like slot clubs. But a place like the Wynn, for example, will take a look at you and make a judgement. I tried to hit them up for lunch a couple of years ago, and was told 20K (that day) was required. But I know race and sports bettors who have a relationship with them that gets them much more for less.

[Dan Druff]

So, I'm curious. What kind of offers are you getting now with your "on-off" method? Tell me your offers and I'll tell you mine. And perhaps others will share what they're getting. Let's see what is the best strategy. I'm open to finding out.

I'm not using the on-off method, because it's more important to me to maintain my Seven Stars and then utilize it at full value. The "off" part requires not utilizing any comps (including free rooms) during that time period, so that counts me out, at least as far as CET is concerned.

However, I know someone else using this method. They initially got $500 type offers, and a lot of them -- to where they could redeem thousands of dollars worth if willing to make several trips to Vegas each month. They weren't willing to do this, but they would go once a month and redeem two offers by letting the 48 hours go between (staying somewhere else they had comped) and then redeeming the second offer just before leaving town. They milked this hard for about 6 months, and the offers dried up.

Then they played again about 18 months later (starting early this year), and within a few months, were getting $250-$300 type offers. They even got one of those NCL inside cabin certificates and are taking a highly discounted cruise with it later this fall. This person ran only three sessions of VP play to re-trigger the offers.

I have seen all of this with my own eyes (I've seen the number of tiers they earned and when they earned them), as well as the offers. This is all 100% true.

You might be getting better offers than this, but you are also playing WAY more than this person. They are getting WAY better offers compared to dollars wagered than you are, probably by a factor of 100 or more.

Rob called it a law of diminishing returns, and he's actually correct for once. That's what it is.

Casinos try do to the minimum to get you down there to gamble. The easier it is to get you down there, the less they will do. So even if you're getting better offers, if you are putting in 200x the coin-in to get double the offers, you're not doing very well at the comp game.

[Dan Druff]

It seems that in addition to Dan's continuing unsupportable assertion that he is "overcomped" at CET, he has just as silly a notion on what it is that drives offers at different casinos.

It's not an unsupportable assertion. If I call a host to do anything for me, that's the first thing they tell me, and then they try to get off the phone as quickly as possible.

Hosts do not like overcomped players for two reasons. First, they are told by superiors not to do anything for them. Second, they earn zero commission on these players.

For years I met with casino execs to discuss this issue in order to write about it, and for years it was always the same simple, sensible answer: A player's offers are nothing more than a direct result of denominational coin-in over time, and offers generated by the marketing computers are solely based on this fact.

Kind of. It's not "over time". It's over a short period of time. The marketing computer cares what you have done in your more recent trips much more than it does what you did 18 months ago.

What Dan and many of these self-proclaimed "AP's" are being confused about is two-fold: first, this loosely used concept of ADT, which seems to go hand-in-hand with their misunderstanding about advantage play in general. This has nothing to do with the offers, and everything to do with being an analytical tool used in determining whether or not to deny or allow verbal requests by the many, many players who constantly think their play level should be earning them more than they're getting. You'll see so many of the know-it-all slot club hounds claiming how "comps & offers have got SOMETHING to do with being figured on your ADT, but only the casino knows how it's being calculated and they won't release any of the details". Which, of course, is totally false. These people toss around the ADT word when they want to sound smart but in reality, know nothing.

ADT is used both by the marketing computer and the hosts to determine discretionary comps. So you're half right, which is actually more right than usual.

Again, I repeat---the best method of getting the most lucrative offers is to stop playing at one place or within one chain regularly, wait at least 6 months to a year, then go back and put through some higher than normal level play for 30 minutes or so.

See, now you're on the right track. That's the on-off method I have been discussing. Except 30 minutes doesn't usually cut it. You have to do a little more than that. It's also important NOT to stay at the property (or at least, not stay in a room under your own name), because you want it to look like you're just stopping by again, but aren't likely to be back unless they offer you something.

Lastly, whether the machine is 94% or 102% and/or whether you win constantly or not, it won't affect your offers in the least. You may be restricted in how points are accumulated because of payback percentage because that's a method casinos use to slap down the so-called advantage players and their big mouths. But what winning does--and rightfully/sensibly so--is that it may get you banned from playing at certain casinos. I've been banned from playing at five NV. casinos over my time, and it'll be interesting to see how South Point reacts. I just got home yesterday from mugging them for another $3800--my only time back since the $25k+ spot I hit them with in early June. This weekend we're headed up to the Reno Italian Festival held on the street outside of the Eldorado. I haven't been allowed to play in there for four years if I want points or comps and I'm not going up there to play anyway.

A few idiotic casinos ban winners out of fear that anyone winning has discovered a secret way to beat them -- such as perhaps exploiting the machine in some way -- so it's safer just to get rid of them.

But these are usually small, Mickey Mouse operations which are incredibly risk-averse to the point of being irrational. You will never seen an MGM or Caesars property ban anyone for winning at -EV games, unless the games are only very little -EV and they are afraid that the person is exploiting comps that way. (Even then, bans rarely happen from playing machines.)

You are totally INCORRECT that playing low return machines doesn't affect your offers. It affects your offers big time, because low return machines (or at least ones listed in the system that way) bring your ADT way up, thus generating large comp offers for you.

[Alan Mendelson]

I swear you're years behind. What's next, you're going to question whether this "new" blackjack system called "card counting" works?

I don't understand your comment/question. I'm asking Dan about comps since he has said that he has mastered the art of being over comped. So what comps does he get?

[Alan Mendelson]

Dan you continue to tell us you're over comped. So what are you getting that makes you over comped?

[Dan Druff]

Dan you continue to tell us you're over comped. So what are you getting that makes you over comped?

I've explained this many times.

I'm not getting anything anymore besides standard Seven Stars benefits and some offers from markets where I'm not overcomped (such as Tahoe and Rincon).

Overcomped means that you've used more comps than your play has entitled you to. This can occur easily on CET's system because of the Seven Stars program giving you guaranteed benefits. Therefore, every time I stay in a room, it docks my comp account, and it goes further and further negative. Same with when I redeem my Seven Stars food vouchers, and pretty much anything else which comes with the program.

Being overcomped is a double-edged sword. It's not good in that your hosts treat you as a pariah and don't want to do you any favors. However, it is good in that it's a sign that you're beating the system -- that you're getting far more benefits than the casino wants you to have, given your play.

With only a few AP-type exceptions, the general rule of thumb with casinos is that you're doing it right if they don't want your business, and you're doing it wrong if they are falling all over themselves to get you in.

[regnis]

I must be doing it right with my wife. She wants nothing to do with me.

[RS__]

It doesn't matter what is said to Alan. He'll either claim it's not true OR if he suspects it might be true then he'll just say, "Well, that's style's not for me. So it doesn't help me. I want something that'll help me."