Having a table game closed on you

[Alan Mendelson]

Regnis wrote in another thread:

They did once close a craps table on me.

I'm curious about the conditions and exactly when they closed the table on you?

I've never had a table closed on me for winning, and I've been at winning tables but never have had the table closed because a shooter was responsible for a lot of player wins.

However, I have had the dice taken away from me for what appeared to be "dice influence" when in reality it wasn't -- and I was just lucky.

I have been at craps tables when the casino closed them but it was not because the casino was losing money. In all cases it was because the dealers' shift was ending. And in most cases the floorman announced "this will be the last shooter" and the action continued until the shooter sevened-out. There were other tables available for the players to move to.

In a few cases, I was the last player at the table and the floorman allowed me to shoot again after I sevened-out, and when I had enough he would close the table. I could then move to another table.

So the question: has anyone had a table closed on them because the table was losing too much to the players, and what were the circumstances?

[regnis]

Alan-the circumstance was I was having a huge roll. At that casino, we always raised the table minimum to $25 so that we could keep out the undesirables. They tried every distraction they could think of but I was in the zone and wouldn't get distracted. At that time, our casinos were not land based and actually had to leave the dock. So there were entry times for boarding. At boarding time (about 40 minutes into the roll in a fast game with only 2 other players), they came over and changed my $25 game to $5 so that all the new players would rush in and buy in and disrupt the game. At that point I lost it and was arguing with the pit boss. I got my composure back and continued to roll.

When it seemed that nothing would stop me, they finally just announced they were closing the game. I again argued that they couldn't do that as there were "contract bets" on the table--i.e come bets that can't come down. They returned both the come bets and the odds--which violates the rules--. All the other bets aren't contract bets so they can be taken down or returned.

At that time I didn't think about the legality of the whole thing. Today, I would file a complaint with the gaming board. However, the gaming board here is just political and they have no understanding of the games and the rules. On one prior occasion where I had a dispute with that casino, the gaming board agent didn't even know the proper payoff on a 9.

That casino ultimately barred me from throwing the dice. A few years later that was rescinded but I only play a little VP there now. Unfortunately, they have the best tables for a controlled throw as they have the least bounce and the most room between the pass line and the back wall for a clear landing area.

[House of Orange]

Is this boat in Florida?

[regnis]

nope

[Alan Mendelson]

Alan-the circumstance was I was having a huge roll.

What did they tell you? What reason was given?

When they took the dice away from me at NYNY they made it clear that they did not want me to set the dice and they believed in dice influencers, and even though I did it quickly just arranging the dice before I threw them meant I violated their rules.

When MGM said I could not throw the dice it was retaliation because I had a good roll and (admittedly) I did not hit the back wall with BOTH dice EVERY TIME.

Was a reason given to you? Did they specifically say it was because you were having a good roll? Or did they give another reason, such as returning to land?

I could not complain or debate the reasons I was given. Casinos have every right to decide who they want to do business with.

When I had my problem at Bellagio many years ago it was because my dice were hitting the back wall but the crew insisted my dice did not bounce back enough off the back wall. Bellagio later apologized for the crew's error.

[regnis]

First they were threatening to take the dice away from me because I was not hitting the wall. But like you, that was untrue as I always hit the wall, however gently it may be. On each roll the stick would yell out that I had to hit the wall, even though I was doing so.Then they tried distractions like talking to me or asking for my players card (which they already had because I had taken a marker for the buy in). Finally, the freshening of the chips. But nothing would work. During that time there was an on-going dialogue between them and my partner as I refuse to engage while I'm throwing.

Then they brought in a different floor man which made everything uncomfortable because he was a friend and client of mine (they don't know that). I could tell he was under strict orders by the apologetic look on his face. He is the one that reduced the game from 25 to 5 and when I challenged him on that, he was again very apologetic and indicated it was from above.

Understand that at that time I was playing craps there nearly every day so all of the dealers, floor men, pit boss etc. all knew me very well and we had a friendly relationship up till then, with many of them active clients as well. But this was one of those memorable rolls.

This casino later on posted a rule at the craps pit basically saying you had to immediately throw the dice--you couldn't play with them before throwing, with a time limit. When questioned about this, they couched it in preventing the guys that play with them and toss them off their own wall for too long, but the intent was to stop the dice setting. I can set the dice so fast that there is no delay, so it wouldn't even have any effect on me. The rule lasted a few months and was then eliminated. I had stopped playing there (other than rare occasions) so it really didn't effect me.

The actual reason they closed the table--no specific reason given. Clearly it was just to stop my roll. We had the 8 and 10 at table limits and it was starting to add up. I should have reported this to the gaming board because of how they handled the "contract" bets.

[Alan Mendelson]

I think when they returned the contract bets they removed liability on the casino. I think the contract is on the player -- you can't remove the come bet that has traveled to a number. I think the casino can cancel it's side of the contract by returning your money. It's rare, but I've seen it happen for unusual reasons in Vegas.