Why did he win so little?

[Alan Mendelson]

Over on the Wizard's forum, a craps player claimed the following:

I hopped the 6's for $90 and hit 3-3, that's where the fun started. Pressed the bet up to $180 and hit another 6. Went up to $300 and hit 3-3 again, and the rolled a forth 6. Crazy! Proceeded to make six points and a bunch of numbers I bet on. Cashed in $11,800.

My question: why did he win SO LITTLE?

If he bet $90 on the hopping 6, it pays 30 to one which would pay: $2700
If he pressed the bet (double it) to $180, it would pay: $5400
If he went up again to $300, it would pay $9000.
And then he claimed to hit it a fourth time which would be another $9000.

I add those payoffs together and I get: $26,100.

But wait... there's more!!!

He also claimed to win 6 points plus "a bunch of numbers."

Yet he says he only won $11,800 ???? It doesn't make sense. Oh, he did say that his buy-in was just $1,000.

I wonder if the players over at the WOV site will question him on this????

[Alan Mendelson]

I might have made an error in my tabulation. He said he "hopped the sixes" and there are three sixes to hop: 5-1, 4-2, 3-3. So if each bet and payoff is divided by three then his hop bet wins were:

$900 + $1800 + $3,000 + $3,000 = $8,700.

That would mean the win from 6 points plus a bunch of numbers ONLY added $3,100.

Still... why did he win so little?

[blackhole]

He said he cashed in $11,800.00 dollars. Maybe he kept playing for awhile, losing a bunch before cashing in. Not everyone is a professional gambler who of course would know the precise time to quit when up the most.

[blackhole]

Just went over there and read his only two posts which are two thread starters. Obviously a newbie who must have been reading the forum for awhile, coming to the conclusion the place is full of bullshit artists. He probably joined to throw around some bullshit of his own.

[jbjb]

Yeah, thems craps players can't be trusted to tell the truth. I mean....They believe in DI...and quite possibly the boogey man too!! :-)

(Yes, I meant to type "thems craps players")

[RS__]

Looks like he won $5,420 on hopping the 6's, if my math and interpretation is correct.

$30 * 28 +
$60 * 13 +
$100 * 28 +
$100 * 13 -
$300

Then he won another 5-6k when hitting 6 points. That sounds like a fair amount to win. But he also coulda won $2k or $20k or $50k over the course of his roll. Do you know if he plays pass line + odds only? Place bets? If he plays place bets, does he press the or no? Without knowing that or how many numbers he rolled in between, no way in knowing whether that was a "why he win so little?" roll.


Edit: And who the hell even cares? Maybe he's telling the truth or maybe he's lying. At least it's believable, Mr. 18 yo's in a row and no one bet it.

[Alan Mendelson]

He should have won a lot more making six passes.

If a guy is making $30 and then $100 bets on combinations of 6 when he first gets the dice and wins $5420 on his first four rolls of the dice (according to RS__) why would he not be making $100 place and pass line bets with full odds? If I just won $5420 after FOUR ROLLS of the dice I'd be making $100 bets.

If the casino offered 3,4,5X odds, each pass would pay $1,000. That's $6,000 on the six points he made.

On the hop bets and the six passes his total win is now $11,420.

Now what about all those numbers? If he bet $100 on each and did not press each number would pay a minimum of $140. If he made 6 passes and had 3 rolls between passes that would be 18 X $140 = $2,520. And I think a hop bettor is likely to press, don't you?

[RS__]

Yeah, he was definitely betting $100 on the pass line on his first roll, so he'd have up to $110 to use for odds. Good thinkin', Alan......lol

MAYBE just maybe he threw out a hop bet as a last-hoorah type thing to get most of his $1k back. And continued to play how he normally plays, or even a bit more aggressive.

[Alan Mendelson]

RS__ if he had $100 passline bets his odds bets would be $300, $400, $500.

If a 5 hit, it would pay $100 flat bet plus $600 on the odds. With a return of his odds bet he would pocket $1100 on each pass. If he bet $100 on the place 9, each time he rolled a 9 it would pay 7:5 or $140. Were you really a dealer?

Your pays on the hops were low as well. Check the layouts.

[Alan Mendelson]

Read the original post. I'm going by what he wrote. He hopped the sixes on his first four rolls. Passline bet not included in his first $5420 of wins.

He should have won much more.

At least I admit I never bet on the yo. I don't make bad bets.

[RS__]

If the hops pay 16-for-1 and 31-for-1 respectively, what does a $300 3-way-6 pay if hard six is rolled? Easy six?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

[jbjb]

I don't make bad bets.

Yeah...the fire bet and the small/tall/all are just awesome bets that every player will destroy the casinos bottom line with. They're just as much of a sucker bet as everything else in the middle of the table.

[Alan Mendelson]

Yeah...the fire bet and the small/tall/all are just awesome bets that every player will destroy the casinos bottom line with. They're just as much of a sucker bet as everything else in the middle of the table.

The benefit of the STA bets and the Fire Bets is that a small wager has huge returns. The 6-point Fire actually has better odds than hitting a royal (1 in about 6,200 vs 1 in about 42,000) and even at a $25 minimum bet table you can make $1 STA bets which return 35 to 1, 35 to 1 and 176 to 1.

I have a net profit on both the Fire and STA bets. I only wish passline bets paid 35 to 1 instead of even money, and that odds paid 176 to 1 instead of the maximum of 3 for 1.

[Alan Mendelson]

Yeah...the fire bet and the small/tall/all are just awesome bets that every player will destroy the casinos bottom line with. They're just as much of a sucker bet as everything else in the middle of the table.

I've made the ALL many, many times. In fact, I made it once (with $25 on the small, tall and all) without even making a single pass. My point was 6 which was established on the first roll. I then went on to roll the other nine numbers (2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12) without making my point. My win was more than $6.000 and by the standard definition I was a lousy shooter because I never made even one pass. After hitting the 12 which gave me the ALL, I rolled a 5 and then a 4 and then sevened-out. Most of the players moaned that I couldn't make the 6 -- I just took my $6,000+ payoff to the cage.

[Alan Mendelson]

If the hops pay 16-for-1 and 31-for-1 respectively, what does a $300 3-way-6 pay if hard six is rolled?

Your post above said:

$30 * 28

That's wrong.

Easy six?

Your post above said:

$60 * 13 +

That's also wrong.

[RS__]

I'm assuming 31-for-1 and 16-for-1 payouts. Not 30-for-1 or 15-for-1 payoffs.

Or rather, how much do you think you win when you hit a $300 3-way-6 (easy way win and hard way win) on a 31-for-1 / 16-for-1 table?


Alan, wanna make a bet? If I'm wrong, I won't ever post here again. If you're wrong, you never post here again. Deal?

[Alan Mendelson]

No. What you did RS is use multipliers of 13 and 28. Why did you reduce the multipliers? The losing bets do not effect the multiplier used to pay the winning hop bet. Are you sure you were a craps dealer?

[regnis]

$100 on each. Total bet $300. It comes 3-3. You win $3000 and the $100 stays up on hard 6 hopping. You have to replenish the other $200 on 5-1 and 4-2 if you want to stay up on all 3. So if you stay up, you will have netted $2800 in the rack (less the 300 initial wager).

This assumes 30-1 payoff.

[regnis]

When I was really playing I would hop the hard 10 if I was throwing. If it hit, I moved it all to the all day hard 10.

On one of my best rolls before I was any kind of serious player, we needed a 6 real bad as the point. One guy yelled out everyone bet the hard 6 for the shooter. He did this a few times and the hard 6 was getting pretty high. I told the stick to move half to the hard 6 hopping for the whole table and then I rolled it. Took them 10 minutes to figure out the payoff to everyone.

This was during the rodeo. If you've never played craps with the cowboys I recommend it. A lot of fun.

[regnis]

RS--I'm not sure where you're going with the 28 and 13 either, unless that is one of those dealer formulas for calculating payoffs like on the craps. I admit I never learned them and just did the math in my head when I was dealing. Obviously, I could never deal in a licensed game if I didn't learn those tricks.

Can you explain.