All-Small-Tall vs. Fire Bet

[BYLee291]

After six days of sessions between The Cromwell, Flamingo, The Linq, and Harrah's, I am now a fan of the All-Small-Tall bonus bet over the Fire Bet. Playing at Harrah's my first night, it was my first chance to see how the All-Small-Tall played. After a half-hour, I started to put 1-2-1 down to see how expensive the bet was. The roller threw the All the first time I bet on it. That day, I saw the All hit three other times, all just as I walked up to the table. On other days, players at tables I was at also said they had hit one or both sides of the bet on those days. On my last day, I hit another All within a half-hour of buying in.

The Fire Bet? In six days, I was at the table for one four-point hit. One dealer I knew at The Linq told me there was a six-point hit earlier in her shift. I can't say there weren't more Fire Bet hits, I tell you what I experienced while at the table, and I probably played more of my sessions at Fire Bet tables, since the tables at Harrah's were pretty crowded most of the time.

The All-Small-Tall can be quite a bit more expensive than the Fire Bet, but it seems to hit much more often. I'd be curious to know what the actual math is for these bets, if anyone knows.

[Alan Mendelson]

I agree the STA is a bet that seems to hit more often. What I really like is that with the STA you don't have to roll any number twice. I personally have thrown the ALL six times and more sides than I can remember. I hit the six point Fire Bet only once.

Now some math: when I hit the Fire the max bet was $5. It paid $5000. Four times I hit the ALL with $25 on the STA and the payoffs exceeded the $5 FIRE pay.

Dealers openly prefer the Firebet because it's less work for them.

[BYLee291]

When I was explaining the STA bet to dealers at Fire Bet casinos, they did all say that it sounded like a lot of extra work than the Fire Bet, which I would agree with. One of the dealers mentioned that the casino lost money on the Fire Bet. Is it possible that the royalty on the Fire Bet is so high that the casino is not making enough on a bet that seems to rarely hit and would be willing to replace it with a bet that seem to hit quite a bit more often?

[Alan Mendelson]

Even though I hit the six point Fire only once I hit four or five points many times with $10 bet. I think I have a profit on the Firebet. I don't know what the license fees are.

[RoeIncarnate]

With STA you have to watch and make sure the dealers mark each number as it is rolled. I've had cases where we notice at number has been paid a couple rolls ago but the STA marker isn't set. Then you have to remind the dealer.

STA hits more often, that is true.

3 alls, nice!

[FABismonte]

The All-Small-Tall can be quite a bit more expensive than the Fire Bet, but it seems to hit much more often. I'd be curious to know what the actual math is for these bets, if anyone knows.

According to Wizard of Odds, the house advantage on the Fire Bet is 20% while the AST bet is 7%. So the AST bet is three time better from the players perspective.

Additionally, I agree with you that I see a lot more hits on the AST than the Fire Bet.

What was your bet on the AST after that initial hit?

FAB

[BYLee291]

What was your bet on the AST after that initial hit?

FAB

After I watched how the AST worked for a few sessions, I increased the bet to 2-3-2, wanting to cover putting the bet back up on a "7" and still profiting a bit on a $10 pass line bet. The only other person on the bet at the table was the women next to me who was constantly on for 4-2-4. There were about six players at the table. The last two numbers that needed to hit were the "6" and "12." She was rooting for the "6" and the "12" hit first. I said, "well, that's even better," and she agreed. Two rolls later, the shooter hit the "6." Of course, everyone at the table went on the bet after the dealers asked if we wanted it back up.

At an earlier session, there was one player just placing $10 on random number so he could put $10 each on the AST. The dealer said he just needed $10 action to play the bonus set. He didn't hit it while I was there.

[FABismonte]

At an earlier session, there was one player just placing $10 on random number so he could put $10 each on the AST. The dealer said he just needed $10 action to play the bonus set. He didn't hit it while I was there.

Do you have any idea why would the Casino care if there was additional action as a condition to take the Bonus bet?

[BYLee291]

Do you have any idea why would the Casino care if there was additional action as a condition to take the Bonus bet?

The way the manager described it to the player, the casino defines a "bonus bet" as a supplemental bet to another required table minimum bet, even if you're betting table minimum or more on the bonus. When the Fire Bet first came up, a passline bet was required. Now, you just have to have another table minimum bet some place on the table to play the Fire Bet. They let this person play the AST by putting up $10 on a hard number. If he went down on a "7", he had to put up another minimum bet, just like the passline players.

[Alan Mendelson]

I've played at Bellagio, Caesars and Rincon and they allow a bonus bet, whether fire or STA without any other bet. Players going to the restroom will make a bonus bet only on the next shooter.

[RS__]

I don't know how frequently the ATS or Fire bet is resolved, but it seems like the fire bet would be resolved (win or lose) far less frequently than the ATS bet is. So, if you're going to continuously be putting up money on the bet, if you want to keep your expected loss low, while playing a bonus bet, you also need to look at how frequently the bet is resolved, or EV per roll (as opposed to EV per resolution).

Not that I put any money onto any of the bonus bets when I play craps, but I did hit the 6 four times (as a point) in one roll on a table that has the "REPEAT" bet (pays based on how many of the same point you hit). I think that would have paid either 1000:1 or 100:1, had I bet on it.

[BYLee291]

I've played at Bellagio, Caesars and Rincon and they allow a bonus bet, whether fire or STA without any other bet. Players going to the restroom will make a bonus bet only on the next shooter.

Harrah's was the only casino I played in with the STA, and they required another table minimum bet to go with the bonus. Cromwell, Flamingo, The Linq, and Rio all had the Fire Bet. They also required another table minimum bet to play the bonus. I didn't try playing a $10 minimum on either the STA or Fire Bet, so I don't know if this would have been sufficient. It may be that one has to play a table minimum bet only if you're not playing the minimum on the bonus, although that wasn't the case at Harrah's. The manager who told the player he had to do this, though, seemed to be having problems with the player.

[Alan Mendelson]

I don't know how frequently the ATS or Fire bet is resolved, but it seems like the fire bet would be resolved (win or lose) far less frequently than the ATS bet is.

Each fire bet is resolved once per shooter. As soon as a shooter sevens-out the fire bet comes down. If the shooter made four or five or six different passes there is a payoff.

There are three bets involved with the STA. There is an individual Small, an individual tall, and an individual ALL. Each of those bets loses as soon as any 7 is thrown, even a come out winner. I once threw three come-out sevens, losing the STA bets, but then went on to hit the ALL.

You can't hit the Small, the Tall or the ALL more than once without making a new bet. Unlike a place 6 -- which you can hit over and over again without putting up more money -- once the Small or Tall or ALL hits it comes down and the pay is made.

I mention all this because I'm not sure how it relates to your question about how often these bets are resolved.

I will say this: in order to get the smallest payoff on the Firebet which is four different passes, four different points have to be established and then made. That's a minimum of 8 rolls. But to hit the Small or the Tall, you only have to hit 5 different numbers one time each, such as 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 for the Small which is only 5 rolls.

Twice Ive made the ALL without making a single pass. And I think I hit all ten numbers 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 in 12 or 13 rolls.

[Alan Mendelson]

Harrah's was the only casino I played in with the STA, and they required another table minimum bet to go with the bonus. Cromwell, Flamingo, The Linq, and Rio all had the Fire Bet. They also required another table minimum bet to play the bonus. I didn't try playing a $10 minimum on either the STA or Fire Bet, so I don't know if this would have been sufficient. It may be that one has to play a table minimum bet only if you're not playing the minimum on the bonus, although that wasn't the case at Harrah's. The manager who told the player he had to do this, though, seemed to be having problems with the player.

A couple of times I walked up to a table at Caesars and saw that NO ONE had a STA bet. The shooter had the dice and was making numbers. So, I threw out three red chips for the bonus bets. My bets were booked even though the shooter had already started his hand and I had no other bet on the layout. The rule at Caesars is the STA bets are not closed if no one has yet made a STA bet.

One of those times when I walked up to the table I stood there and watched a don't player roll half a dozen numbers and then I made the bonus bets with NO other bets and the shooter hit the ALL for me. I was the only player on the Bonus.

[RS__]

If you have a bet that has a 10% HE but is resolved in a single roll versus another bet with the same 10% HE but is resolved over an average of 5 rolls, if you're wagering the same amount on both bets and keeping your action up on every roll, the first bet will lose you much more money than the second.

[Alan Mendelson]

If you have a bet that has a 10% HE but is resolved in a single roll versus another bet with the same 10% HE but is resolved over an average of 5 rolls, if you're wagering the same amount on both bets and keeping your action up on every roll, the first bet will lose you much more money than the second.

Well I don't know what the answer is. The fire loses with a 7 out, the STA loses with any 7. You tell me?

[BYLee291]

I was at The Linq last week for four days and spent a great deal of time at The Linq and Cromwell (Fire Bet) and Harrah's and Flamingo (STA), with my time split around 75% at STA tables and 25% at Fire Bet tables. I probably started out 50%-50%, but gravitated to STA tables based on the results. During my sessions, the All bet hit six times, including two times at Flamingo where the shooter threw it back-to-back. During this session, the dealers encouraged us to go back up after the All paid out the first time. The next evening, I threw the All myself, when I had a bet on each for the dealers. When I asked if we could go back up on the bet, the manager told us no, we had to wait for the next shooter. Later on in the session, another shooter threw an All. In addition, the Small or Tall hit five separate times during my stay.

I was not at the table for a single four-, five-, or six-point fire bet payout. I was told that by a dealer that there was a six-point payout at The Linq a few hours earlier, before I got to the table. It may have been that the Fire Bet tables were particularly cold, since I don't recall having a positive session at any of them.

Based on the results last week, I may be a permanent convert to the STA table. The STA may be more expensive, but my unscientific conclusion is that I'm leaving the tables with significantly more money than I bought in for, so the bet must be working out. As an experiment, I was on the STA bet for every single roll when I was at the table, which was several hours at a time.

[Alan Mendelson]

ByLee I'm surprised you were told you couldn't go back up on the STA after it hit. That's the first time I heard of that happening.

[BYLee291]

ByLee I'm surprised you were told you couldn't go back up on the STA after it hit. That's the first time I heard of that happening.

The floor manager even offered to call upstairs and check. She did and came back and said we had to wait for the next roller. The previous day, when the shooter threw it back-to-back, everyone on the table was on it the second time, including at least $10 on each for the dealers. Everyone was going up "and one for the dealers." Both days were at Flamingo on the same table. I'm wondering whether this might have prompted an overnight rule change.

[FABismonte]

Hi ByLee:

I too strongly favor the STA over the FireBet. I always have a bet on the bonus side bet offered. I have been paid on the All and on occasion the Small and Tall, but I have NEVER had a six point Firebet. And I have played multiple more hours on the Firebet than the STA. It got to the point where I just don't play in a Casino if they have a Fire and not the STA.

Glad it worked out for you, if you don't mind saying, how much did you have on the back to back STA bets?