Slumming in las vegas trip report: Public buses, downtown, coupons and winning

[RS__]

First off -- great trip report. Never been a huge fan of the El Cortez, at least from an AP standpoint. But IIRC they have some pretty good small ball VP promotions and also very good SD BJ games.


As far as the craps thing, I'm with Alan on this one. Adding odds to your bet doesn't change the house edge, just like adding water to a brownie doesn't decrease the calories in the concoxion (idk how to spell that word sorry). The house edge is 1.41% on the PL and 0% on the odds -- period.

I can see one reason why calculating the overall house edge on all your action (line + odds) would make sense or may be of value -- but Mickey probably knows the reason, and Alan would continue down his make believe path thinking "AP doesn't exist" or whatever he thinks. So I'll leave it at that.

[Alan Mendelson]

Alan would continue down his make believe path thinking "AP doesn't exist"

I think advantage play does exist, but it doesn't exist through adding odds in craps. There is only one way to beat the game of craps and unfortunately few -- very few -- people can do it. Those people who can beat the game of craps are the true dice influencers. I am not one of them, but darn it, I keep trying.

I think there is advantage play at blackjack: they are the card counters.

I think there is advantage play with video poker if you combine your knowledge of the best games, with the best games, and proper money management (along with everything else such as cashback, comps, etc.)

I think there is advantage play at live poker and poker tournaments -- and I don't think anyone disagrees.

I think there is advantage play at sports betting -- and I don't think anyone disagrees -- but I don't know the first damn thing about it.

I even think there might be advantage play with certain slot machines that have bonuses such as "must hit by jackpots" because these can be figured. I just think these "must hit by jackpots" are on machines that pay so little, and hit so infrequently, I find it hard to think you can fund your retirement, pay the rent or mortgage, put kids through college, pay for health and life insurance, and fund vacations and days off doing it.

I also think a lot of people describe themselves as APs but can't show any kind of income doing it.

My best AP friend has an annual income from gambling of less than $10,000 a year. My other AP friend (blackjack) works as a video tape editor for a TV station here in LA where he gets a salary of about $100,000 a year, but his blackjack income is probably under $15,000 because there are too few places he can count.

I think being an AP by scouring casinos for unplayed bonuses, credits left on machines, etc. is what you do when you're fifteen years old and your parents took you to Vegas and security hasn't caught you yet.

[jbjb]

I think advantage play does exist, but it doesn't exist through adding odds in craps. There is only one way to beat the game of craps and unfortunately few -- very few -- people can do it. Those people who can beat the game of craps are the true dice influencers. I am not one of them, but darn it, I keep trying.

I think there is advantage play at blackjack: they are the card counters.

I think there is advantage play with video poker if you combine your knowledge of the best games, with the best games, and proper money management (along with everything else such as cashback, comps, etc.)

I think there is advantage play at live poker and poker tournaments -- and I don't think anyone disagrees.

I think there is advantage play at sports betting -- and I don't think anyone disagrees -- but I don't know the first damn thing about it.

I even think there might be advantage play with certain slot machines that have bonuses such as "must hit by jackpots" because these can be figured. I just think these "must hit by jackpots" are on machines that pay so little, and hit so infrequently, I find it hard to think you can fund your retirement, pay the rent or mortgage, put kids through college, pay for health and life insurance, and fund vacations and days off doing it.

I also think a lot of people describe themselves as APs but can't show any kind of income doing it.

My best AP friend has an annual income from gambling of less than $10,000 a year. My other AP friend (blackjack) works as a video tape editor for a TV station here in LA where he gets a salary of about $100,000 a year, but his blackjack income is probably under $15,000 because there are too few places he can count.

I think being an AP by scouring casinos for unplayed bonuses, credits left on machines, etc. is what you do when you're fifteen years old and your parents took you to Vegas and security hasn't caught you yet.

Advantage play has nothing to do with anyones yearly income from it. It's merely playing a gambling game while having a proven mathematical edge over your opponent. So don't include DI as there is no proven mathematical edge, nor can any of the scamsters selling it show what that edge is.

[redietz]

Whether one engages in advantage play or not has nothing to do with income or making it a sole source of income.

It's simply those who prefer taking money from casinos to giving it.

I don't see how anyone can demean always playing positive expectation games. I'm ahead about 5K lifetime playing about 40-60 hours a year of video poker. That's not a livelihood. It's not even a good second-hand car. But it is a way of gambling that, to me, is preferable to donating money to casinos. Let them buy their own light bulbs.

[james40]

Whether one engages in advantage play or not has nothing to do with income or making it a sole source of income.

It's simply those who prefer taking money from casinos to giving it.

I don't see how anyone can demean always playing positive expectation games. I'm ahead about 5K lifetime playing about 40-60 hours a year of video poker. That's not a livelihood. It's not even a good second-hand car. But it is a way of gambling that, to me, is preferable to donating money to casinos. Let them buy their own light bulbs.

Excellent point. We keep our affiliation with CET just for that reason. Seedy motels in South Lake Tahoe this time of year can run over $150 a night, more on the weekends. We can get a comped room at Harrahs over the weekend for free. Yes we overpay at the hotel for food, but you overpay everywhere in Tahoe. The CET Platinum card still gets head of line in Tahoe and I don't gamble for the Platinum. We use the no-cost/no-fee TR Visa for misc business items which after $5,000 in charges gives us CET Platinum. Then we burn through the accumulated RC's at checkout to defray some of the cost. If you can control the gambling, casinos can be used as an advantage play.

[Rob.Singer]

james you wear your inexperience on your sleeve. ANYONE who continues to play at any CET casino, especially in Tahoe or Reno, is simply addicted to Total Rewards while being blinded to what else there is on the market. Their Tahoe & Reno hotels are all totally run down, inefficiently run, they've all had to close some of their restaurants at certain times of the day or night because of constant belt-tightening, and the food available in the places that are still operating is questionable at best. The places are FILLED with annoying Northern California flakes on weekends and stray Chinese most of the rest of the time. Their vp games are pathetic. The only positive attribute is being in one of the most beautiful scenic areas in the world.

Save your money and stay at the Incline Village Hyatt. And wise up.

[james40]

james you wear your inexperience on your sleeve. ANYONE who continues to play at any CET casino, especially in Tahoe or Reno, is simply addicted to Total Rewards while being blinded to what else there is on the market. Their Tahoe & Reno hotels are all totally run down, inefficiently run, they've all had to close some of their restaurants at certain times of the day or night because of constant belt-tightening, and the food available in the places that are still operating is questionable at best. The places are FILLED with annoying Northern California flakes on weekends and stray Chinese most of the rest of the time. Their vp games are pathetic. The only positive attribute is being in one of the most beautiful scenic areas in the world.

Save your money and stay at the Incline Village Hyatt. And wise up.

$300 a night for the 7 hours that we are sleeping? Unlike you, we are not casino rats and are out most of the day enjoying Tahoe.

Again, I don't take financial advice from a degenerate gambler who subjected his family to the pain and embarrassment of filing for bankruptcy.

[Alan Mendelson]

If someone is clearing $200 a week from AP I think that's great and good for them. There's nothing wrong with that. But I can't get excited about all the hoopla over $200 a week unless you're telling me it's a profit made in a matter of minutes with very little up front cash.

Otherwise, I think $200 a week from a grind offers no advantage at all.

[jbjb]

If someone is clearing $200 a week from AP I think that's great and good for them. There's nothing wrong with that. But I can't get excited about all the hoopla over $200 a week unless you're telling me it's a profit made in a matter of minutes with very little up front cash.

Otherwise, I think $200 a week from a grind offers no advantage at all.

It sure beats losing $200 a week.

We've got blackjack plays worth over $1000 an hour.

[FABismonte]

First off -- great trip report. Never been a huge fan of the El Cortez, at least from an AP standpoint. But IIRC they have some pretty good small ball VP promotions and also very good SD BJ games.


As far as the craps thing, I'm with Alan on this one. Adding odds to your bet doesn't change the house edge, just like adding water to a brownie doesn't decrease the calories in the concoxion (idk how to spell that word sorry). The house edge is 1.41% on the PL and 0% on the odds -- period.

I can see one reason why calculating the overall house edge on all your action (line + odds) would make sense or may be of value -- but Mickey probably knows the reason, and Alan would continue down his make believe path thinking "AP doesn't exist" or whatever he thinks. So I'll leave it at that.

Hi RS:

I am glad you like the trip report.

I wonder if I may have been misunderstood when I suggested that Bubble Craps at Casino Royale was an "advantage play." What I really meant was that for a minimal $1 pass line bet (and any amount of free odds) which could go long minutes without a resolution, one could order drinks from the cocktail waitress. So for a penny and half of expected losses on your bet, you can get amused and have a drink (or many drinks). Of course you should tip the waitress.

Not a bad deal on the strip. To me that is the advantage play.

[Alan Mendelson]

It sure beats losing $200 a week.

We've got blackjack plays worth over $1000 an hour.

If you're making $1,000 an hour my hat's off to you! Congratulations.

[Alan Mendelson]

Hi RS:

I am glad you like the trip report.

I wonder if I may have been misunderstood when I suggested that Bubble Craps at Casino Royale was an "advantage play." What I really meant was that for a minimal $1 pass line bet (and any amount of free odds) which could go long minutes without a resolution, one could order drinks from the cocktail waitress. So for a penny and half of expected losses on your bet, you can get amused and have a drink (or many drinks). Of course you should tip the waitress.

Not a bad deal on the strip. To me that is the advantage play.

Why bet the odds? If you can get drinks with $1 on the passline then THAT'S your advantage play.

[FABismonte]

Why bet the odds? If you can get drinks with $1 on the passline then THAT'S your advantage play.

That would work too! Indeed, unlike even nickel slots the CW cannot easily see how much you are betting on Bubble Craps and decisions are far more seldom at the later. What sometimes is lost on the forum is that Vegas is just supposed to be fun. Heck some of the best times I have had there were trips where I just broke even. But losing one's shirt kills the buzz.

[Rob.Singer]

If you're making $1,000 an hour my hat's off to you! Congratulations.

Before you remove your hat, remember that "AP's" always and only talk about making phantom bucks. That way they're claims stay safe, as they've never been able to prove anything but theory. They're no better than bad magicians. Their rubber hits the road when their credit cards get declined at the grocery stores.

[Alan Mendelson]

That would work too! Indeed, unlike even nickel slots the CW cannot easily see how much you are betting on Bubble Craps and decisions are far more seldom at the later. What sometimes is lost on the forum is that Vegas is just supposed to be fun. Heck some of the best times I have had there were trips where I just broke even. But losing one's shirt kills the buzz.

I don't know about your experience, but my experience is the cocktail waitresses do not spend much time at the low limit machines.

I know when I play in the high limit areas at Caesars, the CWs just won't leave me alone. Sometimes I have had to look them in the eye and say I DON'T WANT ANY DRINKS. DO NOT BOTHER ME AGAIN.

But when I play VP in the lower limit areas, a CW rarely comes by.

[FABismonte]

I don't know about your experience, but my experience is the cocktail waitresses do not spend much time at the low limit machines.

I know when I play in the high limit areas at Caesars, the CWs just won't leave me alone. Sometimes I have had to look them in the eye and say I DON'T WANT ANY DRINKS. DO NOT BOTHER ME AGAIN.

But when I play VP in the lower limit areas, a CW rarely comes by.

I think you are correct about the low limit machines but the Bubble Craps is not considered particularly low limit, and at Casino Royale is near the bar in the center so is in the middle of the CW flow. At every casino I have seen Bubble Craps, I have seen a lot of CWs milling about. My guess is that it is a target rich environment with five (or so) players surrounding the dice so it is easy for the CWs to get several patrons at one go as opposed to walking down the aisles.

[RS__]

Yeah, bubble craps machines seem to usually have a lot of people playing or just standing around watching. Frequently it looks like 1 or 2 people in a group play while 2-3 just watch and chat. And they're usually the kinda people that'll order 2 beers and 2 shots at a time, or so it seems.


Haven't played at Caesars Palace HLR in quite a while, but I remember there usually being a waitress come by rather quickly and relatively often. Hell, one time a waitress came by with my drink, without me even placing my order. A bartender there did the same thing, brought my drink over before I asked for it.



If you're playing a machine for free drinks (or very cheap drinks) craps machines are probably the best, well, second to playing VBJ or VP on a bar top. Depending on what you're in the mood for (get drunk quickly and easily, or hang out and have a good time for a little while), you can get quite a few drinks very fast at some bars. The bar top is more expensive but you can probably easily get 4 drinks an hour. Not sure about the new light system, that may throw a bone in the works.

[Alan Mendelson]

Actually, if you want free drinks, stand at a craps table. The CWs don't know if you even have a bet on the table. Just have some chips in your rail and watch and enjoy the drinks.

[FABismonte]

Actually, if you want free drinks, stand at a craps table. The CWs don't know if you even have a bet on the table. Just have some chips in your rail and watch and enjoy the drinks.

Hi Alan:

Won't the craps crew give you the "stink eye" or worse for taking up space without playing?

Years ago I was playing the Scoblete "five count" before I got my chips in a craps game. But there was a whole lot of Point-Seven-Outs in a row so I kept waiting. Eventually, one of the dealers said to me "when are you gonna ever bet?" I said, "I was waiting for a few rolls or a point to be hit and if I did not, I would already be wiped out." The Box man chimed in that I was right. I don't do the five count now but I can see the advantage of using it to lengthen time at the table.

FAB

[Alan Mendelson]

Hi Alan:

Won't the craps crew give you the "stink eye" or worse for taking up space without playing?

Only if the table is packed. But... if you have chips in the rail they will let you stand there and wait your turn to throw.

I know regulars at Caesars who only bet when it's their turn to throw. They will stand there while the dice make their way around the table.

By the way, Nevada has an open gaming law which says anyone can stand and watch a game. If there's room, you can stand and watch at the table.

However, if you are standing with no chips in your rail and it is a crowded table you might be asked to move back from the table to make room. They cannot ask you to leave the table area -- just to make room at the table.

By the way, this is why you can walk into any of the high limit gaming areas and look and watch. You might get an evil eye but they cannot ask you to leave. If someone does say something about leaving simply say "doesn't Nevada have an open gaming law?" And that will make the point. I actually said that when I was checking out the high limit room at a Strip casino where I don't play and I was looking through the VP pay tables. Their security guard (in a suit) came over to me and asked "may I help you?" (I dress like a bum mostly.) And I simply said "doesn't Nevada have an open gaming law?" He quickly turned and walked away.