Both Caesars and MGM have lowered pays on Bonus Craps

[Alan Mendelson]

MGM was the first to cut the pays on Bonus Craps, and now Caesars has followed at its casinos. Article with photos on my website: http://alanbestbuys.com/id139.html

Sam's Town still has the original, higher pays, but it limits the max bets to $25 on the Small and Tall, and only $10 on the All.

[jbjb]

Nobody should every make that bet in the first place.

As for the craps lesson article, if forced to play, only bet don't pass. Can't get any easier then that.

[Alan Mendelson]

Sorry jbjb... I have a big profit on the Bonus Craps bets. And the reason the casinos lowered the pays is that there are many others like me who are winning big on it.

On my last trip, at the Flamingo we hit the ALL once, I hit the Tall twice, and at Bellagio I hit the Tall three times.

[redietz]

Alan, if Sam's Town has the better odds, does that mean all of the Boyd properties have the same odds? I assume so, but I'd like to know. When I'm at Gold Coast, Orleans, or Main Street (probably next week), must I ask someone at the crap tables or would it be posted somewhere? I don't play craps, but inquiring minds want to know. I'd also like to know if Stations' casinos have matched the Boyd odds for these bets.

[jbjb]

Sorry jbjb... I have a big profit on the Bonus Craps bets. And the reason the casinos lowered the pays is that there are many others like me who are winning big on it.

On my last trip, at the Flamingo we hit the ALL once, I hit the Tall twice, and at Bellagio I hit the Tall three times.

You're one person. They aren't losing money on the bet overall.

I have to add about the lesson article. I agree, take it and get the chip, it's an advantage play.

[Alan Mendelson]

You flatter me, jbjb. Both Caesars and MGM have lowered their payouts on the Bonus Craps bet because of one person: me.

LOL

[Alan Mendelson]

Alan, if Sam's Town has the better odds, does that mean all of the Boyd properties have the same odds? I assume so, but I'd like to know. When I'm at Gold Coast, Orleans, or Main Street (probably next week), must I ask someone at the crap tables or would it be posted somewhere? I don't play craps, but inquiring minds want to know. I'd also like to know if Stations' casinos have matched the Boyd odds for these bets.

I don't know if any other Boyd casino has the Bonus Craps bet. Frankly, I am not sure it's even called Bonus Craps at Sam's Town.

The first time I played it was years ago at Sam's Town and it wasn't called Bonus Craps then and it isn't called that now. I think they simply call it the Small Tall All bet.

Bonus Craps came along several years ago, marketed by Galaxy Gaming. What connection it might have to Sam's Town and Boyd I don't know.

I played at Sam's Town a few months ago and I hit the ALL there with $25 on the small and tall and the maximum $10 on the All. I haven't been back since.

[redietz]

Alan, if Sam's Town has the better odds, does that mean all of the Boyd properties have the same odds? I assume so, but I'd like to know. When I'm at Gold Coast, Orleans, or Main Street (probably next week), must I ask someone at the crap tables or would it be posted somewhere? I don't play craps, but inquiring minds want to know. I'd also like to know if Stations' casinos have matched the Boyd odds for these bets.

I don't know if any other Boyd casino has the Bonus Craps bet. Frankly, I am not sure it's even called Bonus Craps at Sam's Town.

The first time I played it was years ago at Sam's Town and it wasn't called Bonus Craps then and it isn't called that now. I think they simply call it the Small Tall All bet.

Bonus Craps came along several years ago, marketed by Galaxy Gaming. What connection it might have to Sam's Town and Boyd I don't know.

I played at Sam's Town a few months ago and I hit the ALL there with $25 on the small and tall and the maximum $10 on the All. I haven't been back since.

I will ask around and report back. I'm really curious as to whether Stations and Boyd are in lockstep.

[Alan Mendelson]

Red Rock had both Bonus Craps and the Fire Bet when I was there about two years ago. I don't know what they have now.

Red Rock is the Stations casino in Summerlin.

[dannyj]

Red Rock had both Bonus Craps and the Fire Bet when I was there about two years ago. I don't know what they have now.

Red Rock is the Stations casino in Summerlin.

Going to Reno next week. Anyone know if they (dare I mention harrahs) have updated from the fire bet?

[Alan Mendelson]

Going to Reno next week. Anyone know if they (dare I mention harrahs) have updated from the fire bet?

Flamingo replaced the Fire Bet with the Bonus Craps bets, so at first blush I would say the Caesars casinos are moving to Bonus Craps. But... now Caesars Palace has the repeater bets on half of its tables. So it's hard to figure out what they are doing.

The gossip at Caesars was that the repeater bets would replace ALL of the Bonus Craps tables.

Flamingo, by the way, also has the over/under 7 bet... which no one makes, just like at Caesars Palace. The gossip is someone was "paid off" to make these changes.

[Dan Druff]

I'm not a craps player, but I do enjoy following the moves of the casino industry.

Here is the craps sidebet odds analysis page from WizardOfOdds: https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/appendix/5/

According to Alan's (very good) article, both MGM and Caesars lowered the odds on the following:

Small: 34:1 ---> 30:1
Tall: 34:1 ---> 30:1
All: 175:1 ---> 150:1

That's pretty significant.

According to WizardofOdds, this changes an already bad house edge of 7.76% for Small/Tall to a staggeringly bad 18.30%!

And it changes the also-bad house edge of 7.47% for All to an even worse 20.61%!

WOW!!!

Yes, we've really come upon a time in casino gambling where the house isn't satisfied with an edge well over 7%.

The All bet on these tables (20.61% house edge) is now one of the very worst bets one can make in Vegas.


Sadly, this is a symptom of a greater problem in Las Vegas nowadays.

They no longer want to "grind to an eventual loss" gamblers.

They want the gamblers they are going to crush almost every time, save for the fluke jackpot or lucky hit.

They are accomplishing this by pushing toward games with "jackpot" type payouts at very poor odds, which is essentially what Small/Tall/All really are.

Casino managers have realized that the average gambler doesn't enter the casino with the hopes of grinding to a small win. He is there for the excitement of the big win.

Therefore, the guy betting All is jumping out of his skin because he just won 150x his bet. He's not lamenting the fact that he should have been paid 175:1 instead.

Also, the guy betting on All clearly doesn't care about mathematics or house edge, or he wouldn't be betting something with an edge greater than 7% in the first place. So if the guy is willing to give up 7% edge to the house in order to chase the dream, he's also willing to give up 20% (and likely not even realize he's doing so!)

Alan, I am very surprised you're making these bets. I realize that they're fun, but I hope you understand that you're giving the house a staggering edge on them (even at the old, better odds), and you're going to get crushed on them in the long run.

[Alan Mendelson]

Dan the ONLY way to win at craps is by hitting these jackpot bets. Ironically you can win the Small, Tall and even The All without even making a single pass. I know, because I've done it multiple times.

I will not play craps without a Bonus Craps bet available. There is no point playing this negative expectation game without a jackpot potential.

[Dan Druff]

Dan the ONLY way to win at craps is by hitting these jackpot bets. Ironically you can win the Small, Tall and even The All without even making a single pass. I know, because I've done it multiple times.

I will not play craps without a Bonus Craps bet available. There is no point playing this negative expectation game without a jackpot potential.

Interesting.

However, that's not true, especially for someone who plays craps as often as you do (and thus variance smooths out).

While hitting a small/tall/all bet can luckily save a losing craps session, in more cases than not, it ends up being a hefty "tax" on your play which will eat you alive.

Look at it this way:

Say I see you every day, and take $10 from you. The $10 isn't a lot of money, it doesn't affect your lifestyle, and you don't really feel it. Then, once every 2 weeks, after you give me the $10, I say, "Hey Alan, I really appreciate all those tens you keep giving me. Here's $130!"

Part of you may feel like you just came into some nice free money. But when you break it down, you just gave me $10 fourteen times (for a total of $140), to only get $130 back. So it turns out I've made $10 off you anyway, for approximately a 7% gain.

That's basically what was happening to you with the small/tall/all bets.

If you really want to play craps for the fun of possibly winning, at relatively low odds against you, just place odds bets at the maximum allowed. There will be some variance, but at least you will go on some legitimate hot runs without giving up much edge to the house.

Either way, I hope you're not going to play small/tall/all now that the edge is 18-21%.

[Dan Druff]

Also LOL @ Sam's Town restricting Small/Tall to $25 and All to $10.

Talk about a risk-averse operation! So basically they're terrified about losing more than $850 to a player on Small/Tall and $1700 on All.

Hilarious.

They should be rolling out the red carpet for anyone who wants to bet against them with a 7% negative edge.

Tell Sam's Town that I will bankroll the higher bets if they can't afford it.

[Alan Mendelson]

Dan craps is a negative expectation game. The only way to win is with the various jackpot bets.

[Alan Mendelson]

Dan why would MGM and Caesars lower the payouts on Bonus Craps if they were raking in so much? Why would Sam's Town limit the bets? Why would smaller casinos such as Fortune in Henderson not offer Bonus Craps at all?

It's because players have been winning.

Next? Bonus Craps might be totally removed. It's already halfway out the door at Caesars Palace.

The reason why Bonus Craps changed the game in favor of the players? YOU ONLY NEED TO HIT EACH NUMBER ONCE. If you played craps you'd understand how important that is.

[Dan Druff]

House edge is house edge. There's no way to explain around that.

If a game is 7% or more positive expectation for the casino, then the casino is going to clean up in the medium and long-run.

The only danger they face is if some whale lays a huge bet on All and hits. For example, if a whale drops $5000 on All, that's $750,000 right there, and it will take awhile to recoup that. But the casino can control that by setting appropriate limits (though not the laughable $10 Sam's Town has!)

Why did they lower the paytables?

Because they realize they could, and still get away with it.

At some point, it was realized that the person chasing jackpots at a 7% house edge will also chase them at a 20% house edge, especially because that person is unlikely to know the house edge on the bet anyway.

It's the same reason Dodger Stadium charges $8.50 for a hot dog. Because they can, and people will pay it.

So are you going to continue to bet these at 18-21% negative expectation?

I hope not.

[redietz]

Dan why would MGM and Caesars lower the payouts on Bonus Craps if they were raking in so much? Why would Sam's Town limit the bets? Why would smaller casinos such as Fortune in Henderson not offer Bonus Craps at all?

It's because players have been winning.

Next? Bonus Craps might be totally removed. It's already halfway out the door at Caesars Palace.

The reason why Bonus Craps changed the game in favor of the players? YOU ONLY NEED TO HIT EACH NUMBER ONCE. If you played craps you'd understand how important that is.

I understand why people believe personal experience and anecdotes trump statistics -- they prefer to. But the how is what boggles my mind. How do you convince yourself a 20% house edge bet contributes, in fact is essential, to winning money overall? That kind of mental gymnastics is beyond me.

[Alan Mendelson]

Dan the max bet on the Small Tall All is $100 at MGM and Caesars casinos.

If you're going to start saying "house edge is house edge" then there's nothing for us to talk about.

Bonus Craps is the first bet to come around that gives players a chance to win at craps. I think you should play some craps and then discuss it.