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Thread: Both Caesars and MGM have lowered pays on Bonus Craps

  1. #41
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Originally Posted by regnis View Post
    I am not one to claim that I make the best bets when it comes to craps, as I love the 10 and the hard 8 and 10. But I bet those when I was throwing the dice and exercising some degree of control. I actually don't ever bet the fire, the ATS, or any of the other carnival bets. But that doesn't mean that I totally disagree with Alan. Craps is a negative expectation game. Every bet except the odds bet has a house edge, and you will get ground down betting the pass (or don't pass) with odds. So you are looking for a brief period of time when the results are favorable, and if Alan is doing this with small money looking for the big hit on the gimmicks, he is still minimizing his exposure. It ain't for me, but you have to beat the math to win at craps, one way or the other.
    Exactly.

    And as I have said before, craps is a NEGATIVE expectation game. There is no way to win at craps UNLESS you do something different and we players got lucky when someone came along and sold the casinos on Bonus Craps. Bonus Craps allows random shooters who can't even make a pass to roll just five different numbers and collect big. You don't even have to be a DI to do this. You don't even have to be a "good shooter" to do this. In fact, bad shooters who throw horn numbers (craps) are the ones who are more likely to hit the Bonus Craps payoffs.

    Dan... for someone who has never played craps, now you're telling us what the casino management knows about Bonus Craps? Really, Dan. And how well are you doing at this year's WSOP?

    This isn't meant as an Alan criticism. It's actually just a comment for those inexperienced players who didn't take a few probability courses and are wondering if the math is real. The math is real. If your goal is to lose X amount of dollars and you stick to that goal, then playing what regnis referred to as carnival bets has no real impact other than to get you off the table faster, so no harm done. But if your idea of gambling is to play X number of hours, then the carnival bets work against you.

    The argument that casino managers reduced payouts on the carnival bets because players had been winning is the same argument one could use to explain why video poker payouts have been reduced over the last 25 years, or why comps have been reduced. The players, however, have not been winning.

    Why have video poker payouts been reduced? Why have comps been reduced? It's not because the players had casinos at a disadvantage and were winning. It's because the players have become addicted, and the casinos are greedy.

  2. #42
    For my non-craps playing friends, please consider this math:

    If you hit either the Small or the Tall just once, your payoff will finance your next THIRTY bets on the Small, Tall or ALL.

    Regarding players winning: not everyone who plays craps knows to make the Bonus bets. Those that do and play long enough will find that they hit either the Small or the Tall or possibly the ALL at least once in thirty bets. Try it.

    Regarding the casinos losing: I don't think they lose on the Bonus bets, but I am positive that they reduced the payoffs on the Bonus bets because they were not winning enough.

    Now, unless you have played craps and the bonus bets Mr redietz and Mr Druff, I suggest you get your butts over to a craps table and start taking notes.
    Last edited by Alan Mendelson; 06-26-2017 at 05:58 PM.

  3. #43
    Spot on red. And is not just those games. 6:5 bj, 1/3/4 ante bonus and 1/3/6 pair plus TCP, etc. Payoffs are getting reduced on most games and not because players are winning or smarter. In fact, its the opposite.

  4. #44
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    Spot on red. And is not just those games. 6:5 bj, 1/3/4 ante bonus and 1/3/6 pair plus TCP, etc. Payoffs are getting reduced on most games and not because players are winning or smarter. In fact, its the opposite.
    Perhaps... but let's stick to the Bonus Bet which is a different, unique animal. I don't think any of you even played it?

  5. #45
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    Spot on red. And is not just those games. 6:5 bj, 1/3/4 ante bonus and 1/3/6 pair plus TCP, etc. Payoffs are getting reduced on most games and not because players are winning or smarter. In fact, its the opposite.
    Perhaps... but let's stick to the Bonus Bet which is a different, unique animal. I don't think any of you even played it?
    Alan,

    The house edge is the house edge.

    This is my new favorite quote.

  6. #46
    Look, there is nothing wrong playing high house edge games if that's what you prefer. But suggesting others to make those same bad plays is stupid and poor etiquette. Might as well convince them to play Power Ball and Mega-Millions every drawing also.

  7. #47
    If you're concerned with house edge STAY OUT OF CASINOS.

    If you want a chance to win at craps play the Bonus Bet otherwise be a precision shooter or don't play.

    I think that sums up the house edge discussion.

  8. #48
    Alan's a likable guy, so I'm trying to find the nuggets of wisdom in his remarks.

    He talks about the importance of actually playing or observing to understand the game. As casinos complicate their table layouts while also reducing staff, dealer errors become more likely, which could be exploitable. To identify and possibly induce opportunities, you need actual experience. So on that point we agree, kind of.

  9. #49
    Originally Posted by bocce ball View Post
    Alan's a likable guy, so I'm trying to find the nuggets of wisdom in his remarks.

    He talks about the importance of actually playing or observing to understand the game. As casinos complicate their table layouts while also reducing staff, dealer errors become more likely, which could be exploitable. To identify and possibly induce opportunities, you need actual experience. So on that point we agree, kind of.
    Alan's a likable guy and a respected journalist, and I will also try to find nuggets of wisdom. The best I can do on his "If you're concerned with house edge STAY OUT OF CASINOS," however, is this pearl of advice:

    If you're NOT concerned with house edge, STAY OUT OF CASINOS.

  10. #50
    Originally Posted by bocce ball View Post
    Alan's a likable guy,
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    Alan's a likable guy and a respected journalist,
    I'll continue.

    Alan's a likable guy and a respected journalist, and he washes his hands after using the restroom.

    Your turn.

  11. #51
    Originally Posted by bocce ball View Post
    Originally Posted by bocce ball View Post
    Alan's a likable guy,
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    Alan's a likable guy and a respected journalist,
    I'll continue.

    Alan's a likable guy and a respected journalist, and he washes his hands after using the restroom.

    Your turn.
    Alan's a likable guy and a respected journalist and he washes his hands after using the restroom, and he's the only guy I know who can speed date without a speed dating service.

  12. #52
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    Alan's a likable guy and a respected journalist and he washes his hands after using the restroom, and he's the only guy I know who can speed date without a speed dating service.
    You win.

  13. #53
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    MGM was the first to cut the pays on Bonus Craps, and now Caesars has followed at its casinos. Article with photos on my website: http://alanbestbuys.com/id139.html

    Sam's Town still has the original, higher pays, but it limits the max bets to $25 on the Small and Tall, and only $10 on the All.
    Layout at Harrahs Reno.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  14. #54
    I will say that the Small/Tall/All bets are good if you want the chance of a big win at craps, without having to bet big.

    For example, let's say your bets are $10. You aren't going to win a lot of money betting Pass/Don't Pass if your bet is $10, even if you get lucky.

    Even betting on points (aside from 2 and 12) won't get you big money.

    But putting $10 on All and it hitting will net you $1500 (or $1700 at the old pay scale), so that's a payout you wouldn't have achieved had you just stuck to regular $10 bets.

    If I was in a craps tournament, I would definitely make those bets, as it would be the only way to separate myself from the field.

    So am I defending the Small/Tall/All bet?

    Certainly not. It's a horrible bet, and has a huge (and now even bigger) house edge.

    But the casinos realized that "jackpot chasers" will throw away money in the attempt to hit the big payout, and those people never care about odds or house edge.

    That's why the paytables were lowered.
    Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com

  15. #55
    Dan did you happen to ask any managers about why the pay tables were lowered? Did you ask Caesars Palace why the Small, Tall, All bets were removed from half of the tables and replaced with the repeater bets?

  16. #56
    BTW, I hit the All twice in three sessions, in addition to two other small or tall wins.

  17. #57
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Dan did you happen to ask any managers about why the pay tables were lowered? Did you ask Caesars Palace why the Small, Tall, All bets were removed from half of the tables and replaced with the repeater bets?
    And ask them why blackjack went to 6:5, why the ante bonus in Three Card Poker went from 1/4/5 to 1/3/5, why the Pair Plus in the same game went from 40/30/6/4/1 to 40/25/6/3/1, why VP paytables keep getting lower, I could go on forever....

  18. #58
    Jbjb you could go on forever because that's what you do. I have asked. Who else asked? And who is just giving an opinion and presenting it as fact?

  19. #59
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Jbjb you could go on forever because that's what you do. I have asked. Who else asked? And who is just giving an opinion and presenting it as fact?
    This isn't my opinion. It's a fact. Casinos lower them to make more money, PERIOD! It's not because someone is winning. Quit defending these POS corporations! They are not there for your benefit and they are not your friends. They are there to strip you of your money as fast as possible.

  20. #60
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Jbjb you could go on forever because that's what you do. I have asked. Who else asked? And who is just giving an opinion and presenting it as fact?
    This isn't my opinion. It's a fact. Casinos lower them to make more money, PERIOD! It's not because someone is winning. Quit defending these POS corporations! They are not there for your benefit and they are not your friends. They are there to strip you of your money as fast as possible.
    While most casinos have been lowering pay tables and pays, I am trying to stick to the particulars about Bonus Craps. Too much money was won at Bonus Craps which defeated the expected margins.

    So far, you and the others have given opinions without (a) playing the game, or (b) asking anyone with any casino about the motivation behind what they did with Bonus Craps. This is why I have little respect for you. You shoot your mouth off too much.

    By the way, the creator of the "repeater bets" is now pitching the casinos on yet another change to the layouts: breaking up the field into three separate bets.

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