Any Experience with M Resort $500 Loss Rebate?

[Rob.Singer]

The only "reasonable window" for the loss rebate freeplay is to not have to go back to play it, even tomorrow. Casinos know just about every gambler will play far beyond the amount of freeplay they're getting--and most will lose. Especially out-of-owners. They'll just make up every excuse needed in order to visit, stay and play....and lose. In fact, you can almost FEEL their sweaty palms, as they rush back to LV thinking $250 is gonna play any part at all in their final result.

Isn't it just like another one of the armchair gamblers from WoV to post "winnings as an "AP". Must be an array of those incompetent bj dealers out there who just can't wait to give it away to the WoVers. And then, of course, we have zee gay blades, splitting this and splitting that. until the hockey game comes on, at which time only one of them starts "splitting". Yuk!

[Alan Mendelson]

Thanks, FAB. That fills in most of the blanks. I think 30 days is a pretty reasonable window.

A good window, perhaps, but two trips are involved over two months. Heck at my age I no longer buy green bananas.

[mickeycrimm]

But I am happy to explain:

2012: total AP earnings: $138,000 ($81,000 from blackjack)
2013: total AP earnings: $135,000 ($115,000 from blackjack)
2014: total AP earnings: $48,000 ($27,000 from blackjack)
2015: total AP earnings: $93,000 ($63,000 from blackjack)
2016: total AP earnings: $98,000 ($75,000 from blackjack)
------------
5 year total AP earnings: $512,000
5 year AVERAGE AP earnings $102,000

So the difference between the total earnings and the amounts from using your blackjack skills is what you earned working rebates or what? I'm not questioning you in a "challenging your claim" sense, I'm simply curious.

The difference is AP earnings that were unrelated to blackjack. For me that is mostly video poker play and for the most part what makes this profitable is the disproportionate mailer bonuses (free play) that the casinos send out bases on play and to a lesser extent the drawings and contests won because of that play. Since 2013, I have had a partner in this area and we have generated between 40k and 60k per year which we slit evenly.

Alan, I hope you take notice of this. I'm very familiar with kewlj from other forums. You can see by the stats he put up here that about a third of his income in the last five years is from video poker. KJ has a partner who works the video poker while he works BJ. He is fully invested in his partners video poker play and they split the winnings. Since he is making about $30,000 a year from video poker that means his partner is generating a $60,000 win a year.

What his partner is doing has been a standard AP play in Las Vegas for at least 20 years. You play a slightly negative game like NSUD or 9/6 Jacks. You have to know the trigger points in each casino to optimize it. How much monthly action generates how much monthly freeplay? The combination of the slightly negative game and the freeplay makes the game a positive expectation play.

Alan, this is what Rob has been telling you for years is impossible to do at a profit. And I have been telling you that Rob doesn't know what he is talking about.

KJ is like me. He started out with nothing about 14 years ago. I think his initial bankroll was like $4000. He has steadily built up from there over 14 years. He has no other income other than his gambling earn. He owns his own home which he paid for with gambling earn. What is amazing is he is still in his thirties. He still has a long career ahead of him.

KJ gives aspiring players a glimpse into his life and what it is like to AP for a living. It's not pie in the sky and its also not get rich quick. Its really a lot of work. But it can be done.

KJ, you will be attacked by Rob Singer for putting up this information. He will call you everything from a liar to a gambling addict. But dont' feel like the Lone Ranger. He does that to all of us. Thanks for putting up this information.

[Alan Mendelson]

Some people do win. Congratulations to KJ.

If some people didn't win, who would go to the casinos?

I of course have never had a yearly profit, despite those $100,000 royals and hitting the ALLs so often.

[blackhole]

Tell me something Mickey, did you put up 10K, hire a lawyer, arbitrator, agree on a third party, to view the facts that confirmed KJ's and his partners income? He's been spewing the same nonsense all over the place with no proof. How is it you know for fact what he made and is still making? You could only be reading the same shit everyone else is, yet, you want to come here and confirm what he makes with no proof. Sounds like the typical AP collusion trying to give backing to each others bullshit with none what so ever proof.


I'm familiar with this same group of bullshit artists from the same forums. The bullshit is the same every where they can still post. KJ is running out of places to post.


Of all sites, this place seems to care the least about bullshit dead end BJ. Except for AP's like jbjb who are capable of finding endless bj card flashes that could keep him playing 24/7 raking in the big bucks. In fact he had to hire a crew of AP's to keep up with the opportunities available all over the country.

You just can't make this shit up...

[redietz]

The only "reasonable window" for the loss rebate freeplay is to not have to go back to play it, even tomorrow. Casinos know just about every gambler will play far beyond the amount of freeplay they're getting--and most will lose. Especially out-of-owners. They'll just make up every excuse needed in order to visit, stay and play....and lose. In fact, you can almost FEEL their sweaty palms, as they rush back to LV thinking $250 is gonna play any part at all in their final result.

Isn't it just like another one of the armchair gamblers from WoV to post "winnings as an "AP". Must be an array of those incompetent bj dealers out there who just can't wait to give it away to the WoVers. And then, of course, we have zee gay blades, splitting this and splitting that. until the hockey game comes on, at which time only one of them starts "splitting". Yuk!

I'm actually not going to disagree with the gist of Rob's post, except to say that the "out-of-towners" he references are primarily Californians who would be making the trips anyway and are only 4 1/2 hours driving time from Las Vegas. Since most of Las Vegas casino income is non-gambling in 2010 and beyond, the case can be made that these folks would probably be making the trips anyway as they head to a recreational destination. M sits there at the western entrance to LV, easy in and out, so why not avail yourself of the rebate opportunity? It's not a bad stopping point for Californians who are a bit hungry before hitting the city. The buffet is excellent, and there was a reality show about the head chef and various restaurants.

Most will probably lose, as Rob said, but most people heading to the city are going to lose. So just don't be part of the "most." The rebate opportunity doesn't force anyone to be part of the "most." I'm ahead lifetime on rebate opportunities. I'm ahead lifetime playing a small scale mini-me version of what kewlj reported above with vp. It can be done.

And Rob, I lead a sheltered life. What was the hockey/gay reference all about?

[mickeycrimm]

Tell me something Mickey, did you put up 10K, hire a lawyer, arbitrator, agree on a third party, to view the facts that confirmed KJ's and his partners income? He's been spewing the same nonsense all over the place with no proof. How is it you know for fact what he made and is still making? You could only be reading the same shit everyone else is, yet, you want to come here and confirm what he makes with no proof. Sounds like the typical AP collusion trying to give backing to each others bullshit with none what so ever proof.


I'm familiar with this same group of bullshit artists from the same forums. The bullshit is the same every where they can still post. KJ is running out of places to post.


Of all sites, this place seems to care the least about bullshit dead end BJ. Except for AP's like jbjb who are capable of finding endless bj card flashes that could keep him playing 24/7 raking in the big bucks. In fact he had to hire a crew of AP's to keep up with the opportunities available all over the country. You just can't make this shit up...

Because I have something you don't, over twenty years of accumulated advantage gambling knowledge. I have no problem separating the wheat from the chaff. I know who is talking shit and who ain't. I can tell by his writing (I've been reading him for several years) that KJ and I both operate the same way. I know my way of operating is successful. So I know his way of operating is successful.

[blackhole]

Because I have something you don't, over twenty years of accumulated advantage gambling knowledge. I have no problem separating the wheat from the chaff. I know who is talking shit and who ain't. I can tell by his writing (I've been reading him for several years) that KJ and I both operate the same way. I know my way of operating is successful. So I know his way of operating is successful.

Would never hold up in a court of law.

[jbjb]

Of all sites, this place seems to care the least about bullshit dead end BJ. Except for AP's like jbjb who are capable of finding endless bj card flashes that could keep him playing 24/7 raking in the big bucks. In fact he had to hire a crew of AP's to keep up with the opportunities available all over the country.

You just can't make this shit up...

You're right, you can't make it up because it's true. I'm not at the moment, nor am I "24/7", but other teams are out there playing these types of games RIGHT NOW no matter what you believe. The fact that you and guys like Alan are to lazy to go look for them speaks volumes.

And I don't give a flying fuck what you think!

[kewlJ]

I'm familiar with this same group of bullshit artists from the same forums. The bullshit is the same every where they can still post. KJ is running out of places to post.

Here's the thing Blackhole. I am not requiring that you believe me, nor is anyone else. You are free to believe whatever you like. People refuse to believe the truth in all sorts of situations. Believe that man has had no effect on the earth's warming. Believe the earth is flat and you will sail off the edge. Believe the moon landing took place in a Hollywood studio. I don't care what you believe.

The thing I always say and Mickey just said as well is that "it isn't that hard to tell who knows what they are talking about and who is just talking". You either haven't figured that out or more likely, you just don't want to. That is your choice. Believe what you like, but don't expect any and I mean any legitimate AP to prove anything to you simply to settle your curiosity or doubt. It is asinine that you think anyone owes you that.

Alan, I hope you take notice of this. I'm very familiar with kewlj from other forums. You can see by the stats he put up here that about a third of his income in the last five years is from video poker. KJ has a partner who works the video poker while he works BJ. He is fully invested in his partners video poker play and they split the winnings. Since he is making about $30,000 a year from video poker that means his partner is generating a $60,000 win a year.

What his partner is doing has been a standard AP play in Las Vegas for at least 20 years. You play a slightly negative game like NSUD or 9/6 Jacks. You have to know the trigger points in each casino to optimize it. How much monthly action generates how much monthly freeplay? The combination of the slightly negative game and the freeplay makes the game a positive expectation play.

Alan, this is what Rob has been telling you for years is impossible to do at a profit. And I have been telling you that Rob doesn't know what he is talking about.

KJ is like me. He started out with nothing about 14 years ago. I think his initial bankroll was like $4000. He has steadily built up from there over 14 years. He has no other income other than his gambling earn. He owns his own home which he paid for with gambling earn. What is amazing is he is still in his thirties. He still has a long career ahead of him.

KJ gives aspiring players a glimpse into his life and what it is like to AP for a living. It's not pie in the sky and its also not get rich quick. Its really a lot of work. But it can be done.

KJ, you will be attacked by Rob Singer for putting up this information. He will call you everything from a liar to a gambling addict. But dont' feel like the Lone Ranger. He does that to all of us. Thanks for putting up this information.

Thank you for the kind words, Mickey Crimm. I appreciate that you recognize what my intentions are...to give that glimpse into the life of a mid-level, blackjack card counter AP and show what it really is like, the swings, the winning, the losing, the cat and mouse game with the casinos. The stuff they didn't see in the MIT team movies and books. lol.

I know that me posting results, hard fast numbers of earning, as part of my sharing, seems to rile up some people. They view it as bragging. That really is not my intent. I have reasons for sharing my actual numbers, so players can get a feel for what is realistically possible from blackjack card counting in current day conditions and it isn't the millions annually they see in the movies. It is funny that a just a couple years ago, when I struggled through my worst year since relocating to Vegas, with blackjack earnings of $27 thousand vs expectation of 3 times that, I didn't hear much of that criticism. Nobody accused me of bragging that year.

Rob Singer is no issue to me, mickey. He is blocked. I don't see his posts. I suppose I should do likewise with blackhole. I did on the other site. I don't know why there seem to be people on the not purely AP type sites that demand someone on the internet prove who they are and what they say. Where does this entitlement come from? I know there are some casino industry/worker people on these sites that are very anti-AP, but I think there are some that just dislike AP's....I don't know, maybe our of some sort of regret (jealousy). And of course some are just trolls, arguing anything and everything (not specific to AP).

But it's not my job to figure it out. There is no benefit to me engaging in these deniers and believers that the earth is flat and other conspiracy stuff. I always regret when these deniers/haters suck me into their "prove this or prove that" agenda, as if they are entitled to anything. They aren't my target audience of those that I want to benefit by sharing my experiences and journey, nor do they want to benefit. They just want to challenge people for whatever reason.

[pkspins]

But I am happy to explain:

2012: total AP earnings: $138,000 ($81,000 from blackjack)
2013: total AP earnings: $135,000 ($115,000 from blackjack)
2014: total AP earnings: $48,000 ($27,000 from blackjack)
2015: total AP earnings: $93,000 ($63,000 from blackjack)
2016: total AP earnings: $98,000 ($75,000 from blackjack)
------------
5 year total AP earnings: $512,000
5 year AVERAGE AP earnings $102,000

So the difference between the total earnings and the amounts from using your blackjack skills is what you earned working rebates or what? I'm not questioning you in a "challenging your claim" sense, I'm simply curious.

The difference is AP earnings that were unrelated to blackjack. For me that is mostly video poker play and for the most part what makes this profitable is the disproportionate mailer bonuses (free play) that the casinos send out bases on play and to a lesser extent the drawings and contests won because of that play. Since 2013, I have had a partner in this area and we have generated between 40k and 60k per year which we slit evenly.

Thank you. This as well as mickey's explanation makes things a little clearer to me. Because I did not see covered in this discussion previously the impact that FP offers generated by the activity you guys are registering while pursuing these rebates and other special opportunities can have on your bottom line. You still need to get good hands and win, which is a gamble, but the other things like these that finance the plays means that those wins have less actual cash losses they need to offset before you show a profit. I primarily play for entertainment, but the cost of this is often minimized or eliminated entirely so that I actually make a small profit, when my travels take me to places where there are generous offers going on, and places that I will be able to return to take advantage of the future offers.

I also think your example, like Fab's, shows that these things are more easily worked for profit with a partner.

[coach belly]

I appreciate that you recognize what my intentions are...to give that glimpse into the life of a mid-level, blackjack card counter AP and show what it really is like, the swings, the winning, the losing, the cat and mouse game with the casinos. The stuff they didn't see in the MIT team movies and books.

Where is this stuff located?

I don't know why there seem to be people on the not purely AP type sites that demand someone on the internet prove who they are and what they say. Where does this entitlement come from?

Perhaps what you say is considered dubious without some kind of validation.

What purpose does it serve to post all this info, if you don't care whether or not anyone believes you?

KJ is running out of places to post.

What does he mean by this?

[redietz]

I'm no champion of AP claims. If anyone has ever read anything I have to say about Bob Dancer, they would know that. But I don't really see blackhole's point for posting here. He seems to be claiming, on one hand, that the AP info as presented here is a lie or, if it's not, that APs are living worthless lives and wealthy people piss away money in casinos and feel good about it, so what APs do should impress nobody.

I would submit that blackhole has no idea if what the APs post here is a lie. And I'd submit that his second point could be applied to anybody who is worth a couple million doing anything. If a wealthy person beats the hell out of his Jag and enjoys wrecking the transmission, why should we be impressed with a mechanic who is worth considerably much less and can fix it? According to blackhole, I guess we shouldn't be.

Wealthy people who blow money in casinos have an issue with people who win. Intelligent, educated people who blow money in casinos have issues with people who win. They can't figure why some casino-haunting schmuck can do something they can't.

There's an old joke among editors: "Everybody with a PhD. think they can write." Well, they can't. And not only are some terrible, the fact that they have a PhD. works against them recognizing that they are terrible.

Similarly, everybody thinks they know something about sports. They do not. Everybody think they know how to gamble. They do not. The more wealthy, educated, and successful someone is, the more likely they are to have a problem that they can't win against casinos and Joe Smith can. How can the great not win against casinos when the plebeian can?

When KJ posts that people can recognize who knows their stuff and who doesn't, I have to admit that when it comes to machine play and blackjack, I'm one of the people who wouldn't be able to tell the liars from the experts. But I do know what he means when it comes to sports betting. You can tell who knows what they are doing and who does not. The do not's outnumber the do's about 100,000 to 1, so you can spot the do's. I'm thinking KJ is writing for the people who can spot the difference in blackjack, not the people who cannot.

[coach belly]

I would submit that blackhole has no idea if what the APs post here is a lie.

Doesn't it follow that he has no idea if what they post is true?

Must he pay money to find out if it is true?

[redietz]

I would submit that blackhole has no idea if what the APs post here is a lie.

Doesn't it follow that he has no idea if what they post is true?

Must he pay money to find out if it is true?

They're not writing for blackhole, far as I can tell. They're writing for other APs who are trying to discern if they are the real deal. I myself couldn't recognize blackjack or machine-play wheat from chaff.

[coach belly]

They're writing for other APs who are trying to discern if they are the real deal.

I don't know about that...but why must they discern? Can't the validity be established beyond opinion?

[RS__]

They're writing for other APs who are trying to discern if they are the real deal.

I don't know about that...but why must they discern? Can't the validity be established beyond opinion?

As far as posting on forums, APs aren't concerned with others opinions. The real APs can tell who's for real and who's not, at least for those who do similar types of play.

It also doesn't need to be established beyond opinion because advantage play isn't based on opinion. It's based on math. I don't need to validate someone's claims that 2+2=4 beyond opinion, because there is no opinion -- it's math.

[coach belly]

It also doesn't need to be established beyond opinion because advantage play isn't based on opinion.

The opinion I was referring to was whether or not online claims are true or not.

The math of casino gaming is valid, but are the player claims of success true?

All the fancy footwork of avoiding proof is suspicious to say the least.

Would anyone believe that some $5 player hit two $100K royals, if he didn't prove that he did by posting photos?

Why would he claim that he hit those jackpots without being willing to prove it ?

Without proof, would most folks believe that he's never had a winning year gambling ?

Popular opinion could be that he is hiding something, maybe from ex-wives or something along those lines.

[regnis]

I just completed a humorous exercise. I just randomly went to the first post of 20 different threads. I then went to the last page of those threads. They all ended up in the same place!!!

[kewlJ]

KJ is running out of places to post.

What does he mean by this?

Apparently blackhole wants you to know that I am banned at two forums, Norm Wattenberger's blackjack forum and Wizard of Vegas. I voiced an unfavorable opinion of Norm Wattenberger and his forum and he banned me. Then he went to WoV, where I participated at the time and he didn't, and he requested/demanded that "his friend" Shackleford also ban me. Shackleford inexplicably felt the need to take sides in a feud that didn't involve him, and obliged Wattenberger's request/demand.

So blackhole wants to be sure everyone knows this, in hopes of discrediting me, or making me look bad, or I don't know.....let's ask him. Blackhole, why was it important to you that everyone know this?