Any Experience with M Resort $500 Loss Rebate?

[redietz]

A load of AP crap axel, and everyone sees it.

You often go off about people not accepting you challenges blah blah blah, but then someone comes along and does and you flop out a pile of stupid, cowardly excuses why you just can't do it right now. And all that does is confirm how APs are nothing but losing, addicted problem gamblers....you know, just like wizard proved he was. It don't get more real than that! As they say.

Do what right now? Nothing has been presented to me.

I do challenge you to prove to me your boldface lie that you had someone following me around or whatever.

The key to the above "ap statement" is "or whatever". It fits in rather nicely with the other ap's here not knowing a whole lot of what they're talking about.

But please splain. You're claiming I had some anonymous internet hack followed around (or whatever ) for the purpose of what? You do know that all you're doing is giving red "pr packet" ietz an opportunity to serve up more of his not so clever/rarely humorous remarks that are laced with corn, correct?

Rob, seriously do you need any help with that survey of the 11,000 vpfree members regarding you and your systems.? I can help you write or edit the survey questions. Certainly that kind of crowd will have oodles of great stuff to say about you and lay all of the critics to rest.

Maybe everyone here could chip in and help Alan with the project. I happen to know a dude who runs a university survey center. Maybe he could also help you write up the proper questions.

[Alan Mendelson]

No one has to believe it. Frankly, I don't care. I have no money at stake. I didn't roll the dice. I just stood there and will always regret I never bet even one dollar on those 18 rolls... never mind a press.

Originally when you told this story on WOV I was under the impression you had no regrets not betting it? I thought that was one of the points you were trying to make, along with random rollers can get lucky too.

First of all, 18 was the number of elevens thrown. I didn't fabricate the number.

Secondly, had I known "the next roll" would be an 11 I would have bet the 11. But I didn't know.

I am not a horn bettor, nor am I a hardways better. I don't have to remind you that the 11 is a one roll bet? Like other players who follow the MATH of the game, like APs, I limit my betting to the bets with the lower house edges. (I do make exceptions for the Bonus Bets because they offer a chance for a big payout and I've had good luck with them.)

The shooter and his buddy I don't think even had odds on the pass line bets. They were young guys.

Yes this random shooter had quite a run. Yes in hindsight I wish I had thrown a dollar or five dollars on the yo. But would you think another Yo was coming? I didn't.

[mickeycrimm]

[QUOTE=Rob.Singer;50928]If kew really wants to take a bet that he can accurately count 2 tables simultaneously at a specific casino I'll take some of that.QUOTE]

Be very careful about booking bets with Singer. He's a known bet welsher.

[mickeycrimm]

Another dumass statement from a member of the confederacy of dunces. AP's don't make craps bets with lower house edges. They are negative expectation sucker bets fit only for the dunces.

[kewlJ]

If kew really wants to take a bet that he can accurately count 2 tables simultaneously at a specific casino I'll take some of that.

Be very careful about booking bets with Singer. He's a known bet welsher.

Thanks for the warning Mickey. I am aware of Singer's bet welshing history and I want nothing to do with this vile, negative excuse of a person.

In addition, while I would consider a wager with someone challenging that I am a professional AP....proof of tax documents....IF the wager was worthwhile to me, I would never involve myself with any kind of wager that involved any kind of demonstration of my abilities in a casino. I work too hard at preserving my longevity to risk drawing that kind of attention, simply to satisfy someone on an internet message board. Anyone even suggesting that of me or any other AP, clearly has no understanding of what it is to be an AP, and in particular what it is to be a blackjack AP.

[blackhole]

IF THEY WERE TO PUT THEIR MONEY WHERE THEIR MOUTH IS THAT MAY GIVE A REASON FOR SOMEONE TO PROVE SOMETHING.

I reached out to you, letting you know I was going to be in Vegas for 12 days which you confirmed you knew about, but had several reasons for not meeting up with me.

I no doubt would have taken you and your girlfriend out for a classy dinner. We could have shared lots during that time.

If you felt the need to lay down a bet to make your time worthwhile, we could have discussed the conditions in person. If I agreed to the conditions, I can assure I had access to more than enough money to cover any bet you wanted.

Yes, and I responded to that. I don't need a bet to meet up with someone. I have met with many people from WOV and expected nothing. You haven't said anything specific for there to be a bet. You just don't believe people can make a living from advantage play.

Quotes from AxelWolf responding to my offer to meet up with me.

“I wanted to think about the risks VS rewards and how convenient it would be for me. You haven't been a fan of mine or AP in general. I will go so far as to say, you have been kinda nasty at times.”

“Someone more friendly than you would probably understand if something came up”

“especially given your derision for AP(s).”

“people who I believe have nothing but good intentions, people whom I get the sense they like me.”

“I'm not shy(*note to AM) and I can handle myself just fine in confrontational situations, but I'm not going to go out of my way to engage in that sort of stuff when there is nothing to gain and perhaps something to lose.”


The back and forth rhetoric that takes place on an anonymous forum, is nothing more than obvious doubts created by un-proven anonymous alleged claims.

After sharing several personal messages with me via WOV, where we both shared a fair amount of personal information, considering my age, along with the fact that I was in Vegas with my wife and two other couples for twelve days; and just the fact that you could or even would consider the possibility of a confrontational situation, bad intentions, or perhaps something to lose just confirms at least for me, my assumptions and first impressions of you and your claims were probably correct.

By the way, your comment that “some people make a killing from AP (like Don Johnson)” is a terrible example. Any card-counter willing to risk a boat load of money, able to get special rule changes from casinos could have done the same thing. How's that AP'ing working out for him today? No casino wants to play him by the same rules, and now don't even want any of his action regardless. Similar to what shithead Phil Ivey did with baccarat. Would you know if Pin-Head Ivey is broke yet?

[mickeycrimm]

Johnson exploited loss rebates which the confederacy of dunces doesn't believe in. And I just don't see what good could come out of meeting up with a darksider like bh.

[kewlJ]

Quotes from AxelWolf responding to my offer to meet up with me.

“I wanted to think about the risks VS rewards and how convenient it would be for me. You haven't been a fan of mine or AP in general. I will go so far as to say, you have been kinda nasty at times.”

“Someone more friendly than you would probably understand if something came up”

“especially given your derision for AP(s).”

“people who I believe have nothing but good intentions, people whom I get the sense they like me.”

“I'm not shy(*note to AM) and I can handle myself just fine in confrontational situations, but I'm not going to go out of my way to engage in that sort of stuff when there is nothing to gain and perhaps something to lose.”

This all sounds not only reasonable, but well thought out to me.

I don't think you non-AP guys can comprehend what it is to be an AP for a living. We play against an industry hell bent on stopping us. There is little benefit to just meeting up with people from a message board just to meet up. If you are considering some sort of partnership or team play, that is one thing. But to just meet up with someone from a message board, especially people that have demonstrated they are anti-AP, makes zero sense. There is much more risk than reward. As a matter of fact, I don't see any reward. Which is why I remain, intensely private.

[blackhole]

There is much more risk than reward. As a matter of fact, I don't see any reward. Which is why I remain, intensely private.

Of course we could throw out the window all the risk and intensely private lifestyle safeguarded by AP's if a bet is involved you think you could win. Of course under those conditions it would be considered AP'ing and everything you just said gets thrown out the window. Yet, meeting up with strangers from a message board just because they say they want to join your crew is safe. You would have a safer chance of meeting up with me, than someone desperate to make a buck. You AP's always end up contradicting yourselves in foolish ways. I'm sure if I lived in Vegas with all the information you gave on forums, you would be the easiest to locate if I wanted to waste the time. Didn't you once say you were robbed because of your postings on forums? Whoever robbed you found you.

Mickey, you, and the rest of you AP's flapping your loose lips on message boards, living in fantasy and denial of your totally insecure future are full blown mental patients.

Let me repeat myself here ..."After sharing several personal messages with me via WOV, where we both shared a fair amount of personal information, considering my age, along with the fact that I was in Vegas with my wife and two other couples for twelve days; and just the fact that you could or even would consider the possibility of a confrontational situation, bad intentions, or perhaps something to lose just confirms at least for me, my assumptions and first impressions of you and your claims were probably correct."

Just quoting what Axel said was just another attempt at twisting the facts to fit your narrative. Nothing less was expected.

[Alan Mendelson]

Frank Kneeland met up with me and my son for lunch. Frank is one of the greatest VP APs of all time.

That's when he told us he never NEVER plays with his own money.

I think that's the #1 rule of true, successful APs.

[Alan Mendelson]

Another dumass statement from a member of the confederacy of dunces. AP's don't make craps bets with lower house edges. They are negative expectation sucker bets fit only for the dunces.

You misread my post. I don't bet on the 11 because it has a HIGH house edge. I have been criticized and asked repeatedly why I didn't bet on the Yo when that shooter had his string of 18 yos in a row. Well, each ONE ROLL bet on the 11 has one of the highest house edges of any bet in craps. If an AP wouldn't bet the Yo (it is called a "crazy crapper bet") why should I make a bet on the Yo?

The phrase "see a yo, bet a yo" is not the strategy of an AP, is it?

So I don't understand why any of the so-called APs would ever, EVER criticize me for not betting the Yo after seeing a yo... even after seeing 17 of them in a row.

I guess only armchair quarterbacks would suggest that I should have bet the yo after seeing a yo. APs wouldn't bet it, and I wouldn't bet it.

What do APs bet at craps? Ask your buddy the Wizard. He says bet the pass with full odds. It's negative expectation yes, but it has the lowest house edge.

Ask even Frank Scoblete. He doesn't bet the Yo either. He bets pass and two come bets with full odds -- again bets with the lowest house edge.

Mickey, you don't play craps, do you? Do they have it at the bars in Montana?

[AxelWolf]

Frank Kneeland met up with me and my son for lunch. Frank is one of the greatest VP APs of all time.

That's when he told us he never NEVER plays with his own money.

I think that's the #1 rule of true, successful APs.

That's mainly because he was working for someone else and he was making far less EV by getting a salary, hourly or small percentage. The person he was working for was making most of the money. I find it hard to believe he never used his own money on any play ever. I have seen him playing stuff where he would be foolish not to take 100% of his own action(almost impossible to lose) unless that's the deal he made before he ever started.

If anyone ever asks you to put up money(back them) where they get a freeroll percentage DONT DO IT unless you know exactly what you are doing. Freerolls are tricky especially on high variance games. You can easily turn a +EV situation into a -EV situation for the backer.

[Alan Mendelson]

Frank Kneeland met up with me and my son for lunch. Frank is one of the greatest VP APs of all time.

That's when he told us he never NEVER plays with his own money.

I think that's the #1 rule of true, successful APs.

That's mainly because he was working for someone else and he was making far less EV by getting a salary, hourly or small percentage. The person he was working for was making most of the money. I find it hard to believe he never used his own money on any play ever.

Better believe it. The most famous words ever to come from an AP: "I never use my own money." And what does that tell ya, bunky, about how much faith he has in his own AP system?

Oh, and by the way: HE CONFIRMED THIS ONLINE HERE AND ON OTHER FORUMS (AFTER I MADE IT PUBLIC, WITH HIS PERMISSION) AND IN OTHER CONVERSATIONS WITH OTHERS. ASK ROB.

edited to add: BOOM

[MisterV]

Sounds like his fame / reputation has attracted "investors" with deep pockets who are willing to pay him for him to play VP on their behalf.

Good result for Kneeland, as his own funds are not at risk, and he gets a steady pay check win, lose or draw.

Plus it helps him avoid the variance, the wide swings, inherent in all casino games.

[Alan Mendelson]

Sounds like his fame / reputation has attracted "investors" with deep pockets who are willing to pay him for him to play VP on their behalf.

Good result for Kneeland, as his own funds are not at risk, and he gets a steady pay check win, lose or draw.

Plus it helps him avoid the variance, the wide swings, inherent in all casino games.

If you only knew the truth.

[MisterV]

You wrote that "he told us he never NEVER plays with his own money. "

OK, so whose money is he using, if not his own?

What arrangement for compensation is he playing under?

[kewlJ]

Sounds like his fame / reputation has attracted "investors" with deep pockets who are willing to pay him for him to play VP on their behalf.

Good result for Kneeland, as his own funds are not at risk, and he gets a steady pay check win, lose or draw.

Plus it helps him avoid the variance, the wide swings, inherent in all casino games.

Yeah but it's going to make the paperwork a little tricky. All the hand pay tax forms are going to be in his name, not the "investors".

[Alan Mendelson]

Frank indeed was funded and hired players to work for the money people. He was paid a fee. He told me he wouldn't play anything with his own money including those coveted progressives that APs go gaga over. I don't want to say more than that because I'm privy to some personal information.

Kewlj has raised a point I never thought of. How were those W2Gs handled not only by him but also the hired team members? In all these years I've never heard about that or considered it. But it is something that must have a plan. What a mess if the winner didn't have a valid ID?

[MisterV]

Alan, if you mention this to support an argument that AP does not exist, wouldn't the fact that Kneeland formed a team of VP players who played using an investor's money imply that AP does indeed exist, at least in the mind of the investor?

[Alan Mendelson]

Sure AP existed for Frank... as long as it wasn't his money. LOL