Cromwell experimenting with better paying games

[Dan Druff]

Craps: 100x odds

VP: Full pay, including 99.73% Not-so-ugly-deuces, 9/6 Jacks or Better, etc. (But tier credits every $50, sadly)

Blackjack: 3-2 blackjacks and good rules, for tables as low as $10

Craps: 100x odds at $10-$1000 table (with odds bet max of $5000)

Roulette: Single-zero on $25 minimum wheel

Full article here: https://www.onlineunitedstatescasino...te-rules-9806/

[ftpjesus]

My read on the situation is this.. Cromwell is the go to if you really want to try and win some cash but lousy option for getting tier credits.. So go to Cromwell and hit that royal and bail take your money to another CET place to grind for Diamond/Seven Stars with lower coin in requirements.. Id be interested in Drexel's read on the single zero roulette at Cromwell seeing how he's a roulette expert..

To me it creates a unique situation bet red or black hoping to double up on avg and place a small insurance bet on 0 which pays out 35-1 or whatever it is every so often.. Technically you give away a small edge to the house initially but odds dictate your going to hit that 0 bet on avg 1 every so often which pays out significantly larger then the black/red bets do.. Ive even seen folks do the weird trick of bet both black and red and the small on the single 0 hoping to avg out slightly above expected odds on it.. Never watched long enough to see how it worked out for them but seemed like the equivalent of essentially grinding VP hoping to hit enough larger including a royal to beat expected outcome and quit at that point..

[redietz]

My read on the situation is this.. Cromwell is the go to if you really want to try and win some cash but lousy option for getting tier credits.. So go to Cromwell and hit that royal and bail take your money to another CET place to grind for Diamond/Seven Stars with lower coin in requirements.. Id be interested in Drexel's read on the single zero roulette at Cromwell seeing how he's a roulette expert..

To me it creates a unique situation bet red or black hoping to double up on avg and place a small insurance bet on 0 which pays out 35-1 or whatever it is every so often.. Technically you give away a small edge to the house initially but odds dictate your going to hit that 0 bet on avg 1 every so often which pays out significantly larger then the black/red bets do.. Ive even seen folks do the weird trick of bet both black and red and the small on the single 0 hoping to avg out slightly above expected odds on it.. Never watched long enough to see how it worked out for them but seemed like the equivalent of essentially grinding VP hoping to hit enough larger including a royal to beat expected outcome and quit at that point..

I've seen people do that on electronic roulette machines to rack up comp points or work off free play, but with actual live roulette, would CET allow you to do this without sticking some asterisk next to your account? Any idea?

[Alan Mendelson]

Average craps player bets double odds.

In my entire life I only know of one player who made 100X odds bets (Casino Royale) and he was a don't player and lost $25,000 in a half hour. And one of my clients went to bet 1000X odds at the Riviera when they had it and I think he lost $100k that weekend on the right side.

[regnis]

We have had 100x odds here in Chicago for years, and many, including me, do use it. If I am on a $5.00 table, my initial odds will be $150 or $200. As the roll progresses and I am pressing my bets, it only takes 3 or 4 passes to get to $500 (max) odds. Then I increase my pass line bet to accommodate higher odds. We also have put bets here, so this applies to any number I am betting, not just the pass line. There used to be a group of high rollers at Horseshoe, Indiana that all bet max odds. They hit them for over a million one night but they were all long time losers. Otherwise, not many players use the odds.

One time, and one time only, I got my odds to $10,000. I did not hit it. I have hit a buy on the 10 for $25,000 however.

In Vegas recently I only played craps for a few hours total and never got a number to over $500. Since I no longer throw with any degree of control, I doubt I will ever hit those levels again.

[Alan Mendelson]

Sams Town has 20X odds. Arizona Charlies has 10X odds. I usually see single odds.

I recall a conversation with the dealers at Caesars about the 100X odds at the Cromwell. One dealer said "how do they stay in business?" Everyone laughed.

[FABismonte]

In my entire life I only know of one player who made 100X odds bets (Casino Royale) and he was a don't player and lost $25,000 in a half hour. And one of my clients went to bet 1000X odds at the Riviera when they had it and I think he lost $100k that weekend on the right side.

Hi Alan: I only made a 100X bet once in my life, it was in Casino Royale last year. Here is my story I previously posted in another forum:

Bucket List Item – 100 times odds craps bet

I have played craps for many years. Most of them were at places which either offered double odds or perhaps 3, 4, 5, odds (often at the strip). Occasionally, I would play at a casino which offered ten times odds like the El Cortez in downtown Vegas. Only in Harrah’s Horseshoe at Hammond, Indiana do I recall I played at a casino which offered 100 times odds. However, I never played full odds because I never had the bankroll to put full odds when I was in Indiana.

A couple of weeks ago, I was in Vegas with two pals of mine who graduated with me some 30 years ago: Mr. S and Mr. C. After many free Diamond Lounge drinks, we were bantering back and forth about the making a casino bet where the house had no advantage. We chatted of course about Blackjack but that required a lot of concentration and some camouflage. At any rate was not news that if once counted cards, one could beat the casino – unless/until you were kicked out.

We also discussed craps and noted that free odds bets had no casino advantage but of course you need to first make a pass line bet where the casino had a small edge. Mr. C noted that he saw a sign at the Cromwell where it was advertising 100 times odds on craps and that morning had a $5 minimum table. But we noted that no one we knew would make a $500 odds bet on a $5 pass line bet. Therefore, I joked to Mr. S that all he needed to do to avoid any house edge was talk Mr. C in making a pass line bet, then add his money to an odds behind Mr. C’s.

Mr. C. then connected the dots that we could share the action on the odds to make a 100 times odds bet. This triggered a long dormant desire in me to make a 100 times odds bet at least once in my life. This was on my bucket list but I was never comfortable putting such a high percentage of my bankroll into one roll of the dice. Also, I feared that if I won, I might be tempted to keep going until I lost. But if we shared the free odds among the three of us, it would be a way to handle the variance.

We then discussed the logistics of this bet among the three of us. We agreed to share the bet three ways, about $167 per man. We would go to the Cromwell, make a single $500 odds pass line bet, and leave --- win or lose. Additionally, to reduce the variance, we would only put the full odds on the pass line bet if the point was a six or an eight. We certainly would not make such a bet on a four or ten as we had twice as much chance for a losing Seven than a winning point. The fact that I had my buddies with me made this bucket list bet more exciting and also would be peer pressure not to press any winning or steam if we lost.

We then finished our drinks at the Harrah’s Diamond Lounge and headed over to the Cromwell. When we got there it was the afternoon and we found that the minimum bet was raised to $10. Mr. C noted that the house edge was still miniscule if we had a $10 pass line bet and $500 odds, but we quickly noted that it would defeat the bucket list dream of full 100 times odds bet.

I then suggested that we head over to the Casino Royale where they also advertised 100 times odds and probably did not have more than $5 minimums in the afternoon. As we walked up there, we discussed that it would seem to make unnecessary work for the craps dealers to buy in for $500 plus then cash out after one pass. So we thought it would be more “polite” to buy the chips at the Casino Royale cashier. It was agreed I would bet for all of us. When we got there, we verified that the craps table at Casino Royale was relocated near the back of the casino, toward the snack bars, and was open with $5 minimums. Here is a photo of the 100 times odds advertising sign. To be continued . . .

[FABismonte]

As we approached the cashier to buy the chips, Mr. S started having cold feet. He said that he had already lost on the trip and was not excited about making a $167 bet on ONE roll of the dice. In fairness, he was never as big a gambler as Mr. C and I. Mr. C and I welcomed him to put as little as he wanted into the gambit. He said he was comfortable putting in $100. So we then amended our own little “corporation” by having a $200 investment from both Mr. C and I for the odds with $100 from Mr. S. We would divide up our anticipated winnings proportionally to our bet so we shared 40%-40%-20%. At my suggestion, we also agreed that for simplicity sake I would own the pass line bets, and win or lose, keep the pass line results for myself. I then walked up the cashier with $525 dollars and asked for five black ($100) and five red chips ($5). The cashier replied that we could not buy chips at the cashier and we could only do so at the tables. I pointed out the rack of black chips beside her and said “you cannot sell me any of those?” The answer was “no” coupled with a bit of an eye roll. So defeated by the cashier, we went off the craps table -- cash in hand.

There were two craps tables, but only one was open. On the open one was a fairly large gap to the stick right and the three of us walked up to that gap. To our immediate right was a young woman who had the point on nine, a $5 pass line bet and was rolling with ten odds. The minimum bet on the craps table sign was $5 with 100 times odds. While she was rolling I read the sign again and was confused as it also stated “closed 5 AM to 9 AM.” I thought that it was possible that the 100 times odds were for specific time frames and asked the dealer for clarification. He said we could make 100 times bets now, and the time on the sign simply noted when the craps table was closed. I guess there was not enough action justify manning the tables in the wee morning hours.

After about five rolls, the young woman shooter made a “seven out.” I then dropped five Benjamins, a Jackson and a Lincoln and said “five black and five red please.” The dealer, then repeated what I said. The box woman, not as bored as she was a second ago, picked up five black from the middle of the table and pushed them out and I was slipped five more red chips. The dealer also raised my Benjamins to the light and checked them out to reduce the chance they were counterfeit. I then placed a $5 chip on the passline. I was prepared to wait until a point of 6 or 8. The dice were passed to the other side of the table to a middle aged woman, passing me by. I did not expect to get the dice since I had not been playing, in truth I did not want the added pressure of rolling as well. As if the gambling gods heard my inchoate prayer, a point of six was immediately made. I then put $500 odds behind our bet. Here is a photo of our bet which I sneaked in without being tossed out of the place. To be continued. . .

[FABismonte]

An advantage for us having the dice passed to the other side of the table was we had a front row view of the dice as they stopped on our end of the table. The shooter then rolled … a four. OK, no result. She then rolled a few craps numbers, like two threes and a snake eyes. Then she rolled . . . an eight! The OTHER number we would have been willing to put a $500 odds bet behind. Mr. C exclaimed that could have been our number!

At this point, my heart was racing. I could feel my chest as my check was tightening and my arteries were doing jackhammer like effort. I have been playing craps for many years but the size of the bet, and the fact that all three of us were on it, got me really excited. I told Mr. C that I was really nervous. Mr. C said so was he. Mr. S did not respond. He simply stared at the felt of the craps table.

The shooter then rolled . . . a Nine. No action for us. Then the shooter rolled again . . . the dice bounced around on our end revealing a four and a . . . two for a beautiful total of SIX!!!! We screamed, and pumped our fists. The other side of the table was happy as well as they made the point. The dealer put a red chip next to our passline bet and six black next to our odds bet.

I place the two $5 chips into the Come area and said “for the dealers” and got a polite, but not overly enthusiastic “thank you.” I then excited picked up the eleven black chips, and tossed the left over 4 red chips to the shooter. She was surprised by the chips flying her way and so I approached as said I had a $500 line bet so the $20 was for you. In retrospect I am not sure I should have tossed so much to the shooter, but was happy that the red chips were mine alone so I did not have to divide it up with my buddies and justify the tips.

I then pointed out the closed craps table and suggested we move there for some celebration photos. I then laid all eleven black chips on that table and took the photo below.

[FABismonte]

We went to the cashier to cash out our chips. The cashier promptly picked up the phone to verify whether there was a problem cashing in our chips. Since she eventually handed out cash, I presume I was able to escape any further scrutiny and/or am not heading to Vegas Metro or Guantanamo Bay. We asked that one Benjamin be broken into twenties for change. I wonder if the cashier thought we were going to tip her, but I was not interested in doing so.

So we divided up the wealth with winnings of $240 each for me and Mr. C and $120 for Mr. S. We then went to the nearby White Castle at Casino Royale for a bag of sliders to celebrate! The last time I had sliders was in the Midwest when we were at school so it was the perfect celebration cuisine to check the 100 times odds bet off my bucket list.

Hope you enjoyed the story.

FAB

[Dan Druff]

Great story!

The 100x bet shared among a few people was a great idea. I may try that sometime. I would also like to place a 100x odds bet at least once in my life. Like you, I would probably also want it on 6 or 8, to raise the chance that I will actually win.

Cool that you snapped a picture without them noticing.

At Casino Royale, they tend to verify any 4-figure cashouts. I once cashed out $2600 there from blackjack, and they did the same thing.

Unfortunately, a hooker was watching and then approached me and aggressively tried to get me to hire her. I kept saying no, and she kept pressing me to change my mind. Finally, some drunk guys showed up and started loudly talking to us. I used that as a way to quickly slip away, and that was that.

[regnis]

Love it FAB.

[Rob.Singer]

My read on the situation is this.. Cromwell is the go to if you really want to try and win some cash but lousy option for getting tier credits.

Why would any gambler at any time and for any reason, opt for improving slot club status and "freebies" over winning cash? ??

[Dan Druff]

My read on the situation is this.. Cromwell is the go to if you really want to try and win some cash but lousy option for getting tier credits.

Why would any gambler at any time and for any reason, opt for improving slot club status and "freebies" over winning cash? ??

Actually, he's correct.

If your goal is to run up tier credits, the games I listed aren't good for that.

The games I listed are still -EV, so you won't "win cash" long term by playing them. They're just less -EV than at other strip casinos, so if you're going to play on the strip anyway, you should do it at The Cromwell if those games appeal to you.

[Dan Druff]

Anyway, there is also apparently a new player-friendly baccarat there called EZ Baccarat.

It's identical to regular baccarat, except they don't take the 5% commission on "banker" wins. However, they also don't give the banker a win if his win comes from a 3-card-drawn 7. In that case, he would push (where in regular baccarat he would win).

Believe it or not, this is actually a neutral change, and the house edge for a banker bet is still 1.06%.

It is called "EZ" Baccarat because it doesn't require the awkward calculation of the 5% commission, but straight banker bets either pay even money, lose, or push.

[tableplay]

Not only that but the Dragon side bet on this game is countable:
https://wizardofodds.com/games/baccarat/dragon-bet/

Anyway, there is also apparently a new player-friendly baccarat there called EZ Baccarat.

It's identical to regular baccarat, except they don't take the 5% commission on "banker" wins. However, they also don't give the banker a win if his win comes from a 3-card-drawn 7. In that case, he would push (where in regular baccarat he would win).

Believe it or not, this is actually a neutral change, and the house edge for a banker bet is still 1.06%.

It is called "EZ" Baccarat because it doesn't require the awkward calculation of the 5% commission, but straight banker bets either pay even money, lose, or push.

[Dan Druff]

Not only that but the Dragon side bet on this game is countable:
https://wizardofodds.com/games/baccarat/dragon-bet/

Anyway, there is also apparently a new player-friendly baccarat there called EZ Baccarat.

It's identical to regular baccarat, except they don't take the 5% commission on "banker" wins. However, they also don't give the banker a win if his win comes from a 3-card-drawn 7. In that case, he would push (where in regular baccarat he would win).

Believe it or not, this is actually a neutral change, and the house edge for a banker bet is still 1.06%.

It is called "EZ" Baccarat because it doesn't require the awkward calculation of the 5% commission, but straight banker bets either pay even money, lose, or push.

Interesting.

I don't know much (yet) about counting the Dragon Bet.

A few questions:

1) Has anyone been kicked out from casinos for counting this bet?

2) Do you feel this Cromwell game is +EV if counted?

3) If so, what is the expected edge?

I probably wouldn't do this anyway, because I don't want to be banned from CET properties and lose the ability to play the WSOP, but it's still interesting.

[tableplay]

For baccarat (including EZ baccarat) you can use scratch paper. So you just have to have the bankroll to grind out the high variance (answers in red)

Not only that but the Dragon side bet on this game is countable:
https://wizardofodds.com/games/baccarat/dragon-bet/

Anyway, there is also apparently a new player-friendly baccarat there called EZ Baccarat.

It's identical to regular baccarat, except they don't take the 5% commission on "banker" wins. However, they also don't give the banker a win if his win comes from a 3-card-drawn 7. In that case, he would push (where in regular baccarat he would win).

Believe it or not, this is actually a neutral change, and the house edge for a banker bet is still 1.06%.

It is called "EZ" Baccarat because it doesn't require the awkward calculation of the 5% commission, but straight banker bets either pay even money, lose, or push.

Interesting.

I don't know much (yet) about counting the Dragon Bet.

A few questions:

1) Has anyone been kicked out from casinos for counting this bet? Not to my knowledge

2) Do you feel this Cromwell game is +EV if counted? yes, but high variancee

3) If so, what is the expected edge? about 7.5%

I probably wouldn't do this anyway, because I don't want to be banned from CET properties and lose the ability to play the WSOP, but it's still interesting.