Originally Posted by
blackhole
I got involved in a thread at another forum where a slot designer / programmer, offered to answer any question about slots. He designs slots for land based casinos and another member who operates an online casino also contributed. Interesting to say the least.
I brought up AP’s who insist they beat certain slot machines in the long term, claiming to make a comfortable living doing this. I then gave him some examples of quotes.
His first response was Quote: “ Other than some well documented Russian guys that cracked the RNG of some older games, as far as I know there is no way to "Beat slots".. if there was, I would be rich!
To be honest I've never heard of Elliot Jacobson so I can't comment on him or anything he's said.”
I then linked him to Eliot Jacobson’s old AP Heat site where he directly discusses the AP advantage playing slots. I also followed with this comment to him Quote [I]“Being able to successfully Advantage Play certain slot games for long term profits could be considered beating slots. I'm rather surprised by your professional comment above. Are some programmers / designers that far out of the AP loop?
If you read the link above written by E.J., it would appear that AP concerns were considered often during programing.
Quote from E.J. "Over the years she has sent me numerous PAR sheets to ask for a second opinion on possible advantage play strategies."
He responds Quote: "Sorry... I get what you mean now. And no we don't really care about this type of AP as they're doing nothing wrong. Any game with progressive jackpots will reach a point where it is in your advantage to play... Of course you still have to win it. Some games even advertise when a progressive is over its average value which no doubt encourages AP in that respect.
They aren't beating the game."
The online casino operator says, Quote:
"It is not rocket science.
Jackpot hits and of course every single spin made then is going to get closer to the jackpot. Everybody can claim that after a few million spins on a slot the jackpot is going to get closer.
It can, of course, theoretically hit the next spin after the jackpot was hit, but statistically speaking that is not very likely.
They are not advantage players, they are just using statistics in my opinion."
The slot designer also adds Quote:
"Exactly - and the "must hit by" slots are purposely designed to get people to play them more the nearer they get... So whilst you might have a slight RTP advantage in the short term, you aren't going to pay your mortgage off because of it!"
Anyone here has any questions you would like me to ask him?
When I read this, I was thinking the same thing MC was regarding how M.E. helped develop the Vacation USA slot. That slot game generated a healthy profit for AP's when it first came out, unfortunately, it was simple to figure out and it was a very very low-risk proposition, so it was quickly overrun by some sketchy broke credit hustlers who were fighting over the machines.
Slot designers have been making mistakes and design flaws since the beginning of slots.
No real AP is claiming they can beat a slot straight up, as in....just walk up to slot machine start playing and beat it long term. That's probably where the confusion comes in. I assume the slot designers you mentioned think you are talking about some system. They are probably thinking something along the lines watching people dump a bunch of money in and jumping in behind them, or predicting when a progressive jackpot will hit based on how high it is(famous last words, "I have never seen it get over x amount, it's ready/due to hit".)
There have been mistakes made that allowed AP's to beat a slot for a period of time straight up.
In order to beat slots, you must have something extra going on, such as....
1) A progressive. It could be uncapped or a must hit progressive( linked or individual). jbjb, There's nothing wrong with playing an uncapped slot progressive, it would not be much different than playing a VP progressive as they are both uncapped. There are uncapped slot progressives that have shorter average jackpot cycles than a VP Royal cycle, such as Blazing sevens and Double Diamond(let's not forget multiway progressives). Slots are harder to calculate, however, there are ways to get fairly close, sometimes you can even get par sheets. I wouldn't want to play a slot that had a JP cycle in the millions. I have played some slot progressives where the cycle was in the hundreds of thousands.
2) An accumulating bonus feature. That's really just a different type progressive, there are many examples of those type of machines.
3) A community banking bonus feature.
4) Casino promotions or marketing.