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Thread: SLOT MACHINE AP's

  1. #41
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    This is the pic where I hit the last 5 out of 7. You can see the meter is on $233.40. That means my action put $2.25 in the meter. It was on $231.15 when I started. Since I know the meter runs at 1% I can calculate how many games it took me to snap the meter off:

    Multiply $2.25 by 100 to get $225. Since I was betting 50 cents per game (two quarters) divide 225 by .50 to get 450 games. So I snapped the meter off at about the expected number of games. You can see the credits racked up below the payscale.

    If you look closely you will see that I wasn't done with this play. The countdown on the 6 out of 7 is one 1.
    So how many winners like this do you get in a week? Are there that many players to push up the jackpots?

    And how much did you put in to hit this? I'm trying to figure your NET PROFIT.
    I don't remember exactly what I had in the machine but it would have been $100 at the most.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  2. #42
    Originally Posted by quahaug View Post
    Hey Mickey, just curious. Do you play the same numbers in keno or do you go random or what?
    It really doesn't matter what numbers you play the odds are still the same. I like numbers close together as opposed to scattered because it's easier to see when you hit something. But I've been known to smack the "quick pick" button if my numbers are running badly. But the quick pick always leaves the numbers scattered.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  3. #43
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    So how many winners like this do you get in a week? Are there that many players to push up the jackpots?
    There are two dozen different games I vulture. This is just one of them. When I walk into a casino I'm looking at all those games for playable numbers. I probably don't make more than a few thousand a year off Jackpot Rockets. the win is combined with all my other plays. I generally do a $5000 a month machine win.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  4. #44
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Are there that many players to push up the jackpot?
    The game is on about 700 machines in the state.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  5. #45
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Are there that many players to push up the jackpot?
    The game is on about 700 machines in the state.
    This is a statewide progressive? Otherwise how long does it take for one machine to reach a playable level?

    By the way if you're getting $5000 profit a month without a single W2G you've got a gold mine. That would also mean you're hitting five of these big winners a week.

  6. #46
    Alan, he doesn't file a tax return anyway--win or lose. Go ahead, ask him to "prove his winnings" with copies of what would be in his case, very simple tax returns, and all he'll do is the redietz shuffle: "BBBut Rob wont do it so why should I?"

    Besides, if you've tried to keep track of all his stories, one tale has him winning "six figures per year" another shouts "it's none of your business!" and here we have "$5000/mo.". It all day depends on what he wants others to think about him and how rugged the ap criticism gets.

    The majority of his keno stories are right out of Keno Lil's playbook anyway. Plus successful gamblers don't brag about drinking. That's how you know he's blowing smoke. I spotted those immediately. And does he come across as the smartest busted-out Nv. gambler to come down the Montana pike anyways....

  7. #47
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Slot designers have been making mistakes and design flaws since the beginning of slots.

    No real AP is claiming they can beat a slot straight up, as in....just walk up to slot machine start playing and beat it long term. That's probably where the confusion comes in. I assume the slot designers you mentioned think you are talking about some system. They are probably thinking something along the lines watching people dump a bunch of money in and jumping in behind them, or predicting when a progressive jackpot will hit based on how high it is(famous last words, "I have never seen it get over x amount, it's ready/due to hit".)

    There have been mistakes made that allowed AP's to beat a slot for a period of time straight up.

    In order to beat slots, you must have something extra going on, such as....

    1) A progressive. It could be uncapped or a must hit progressive( linked or individual). jbjb, There's nothing wrong with playing an uncapped slot progressive, it would not be much different than playing a VP progressive as they are both uncapped. There are uncapped slot progressives that have shorter average jackpot cycles than a VP Royal cycle, such as Blazing sevens and Double Diamond(let's not forget multiway progressives). Slots are harder to calculate, however, there are ways to get fairly close, sometimes you can even get par sheets. I wouldn't want to play a slot that had a JP cycle in the millions. I have played some slot progressives where the cycle was in the hundreds of thousands.

    2) An accumulating bonus feature. That's really just a different type progressive, there are many examples of those type of machines.

    3) A community banking bonus feature.

    4) Casino promotions or marketing.
    How much money do AP’s have to put through any machine to figure out if the designers made any mistakes or design flaws? What’s the tip off there aren’t any flaws and for you to stop wasting money trying to find one on any certain game? Or, is this a secret move between secret AP players willing to share this information when they stumble onto an error? If so, how do you get into this group willing to share sacred AP secrets? The guy that stumbled onto that King video poker flaw, shared it with one person and between the both of them ended up locked up and broke.

    How do you get your hands on a machines par sheet? This has to be one of the most guarded parts of any slot machine. The last time I heard of something like this taking place was with Ron Harris back in the 90’s.

    Quote from Wikipedia :

    Ronald Dale Harris is a computer programmer who worked for the Nevada Gaming Control Board in the early 1990s and was responsible for finding flaws and gaffes in software that runs computerized casino games. Harris took advantage of his expertise, reputation and access to source code to illegally modify certain slot machines to pay out large sums of money when a specific sequence and number of coins were inserted.[1] From 1993 to 1995, Harris and an accomplice stole thousands of dollars from Las Vegas casinos, accomplishing one of the most successful and undetected scams in casino history.

    Don't overlook the fact that what Harris did above was in the early 90"s. Security has come a long way since then.

    Vulturing slots for accumulations towards bonus features, is well explained by MickeyCrimm here. You also have to be willing to except the outcomes and living conditions that type of play offers. Of course, it’s way better than being homeless.

    Waiting for progressives to become +EV to play, doesn’t guarantee you’re going to hit it. And if you got a team that takes every seat, you still have to chop it up between everyone along with working out undeniable tax liabilities.

    Chasing casino promotions usually always have a catch to them not resulting in instant cash in pocket.

    Where I’m asking this slot designer these AP questions, doesn’t seem to interest any of the hundreds of slot machine participants, or even the designer. This thread had 66K views and 1,100 posts, and not one gives one shit about alleged AP’s.

    Give me a question that might make the members and designer scratch their heads? Please, not about the obvious two bit accumulator vulture.

  8. #48
    Originally Posted by blackhole View Post
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Slot designers have been making mistakes and design flaws since the beginning of slots.

    No real AP is claiming they can beat a slot straight up, as in....just walk up to slot machine start playing and beat it long term. That's probably where the confusion comes in. I assume the slot designers you mentioned think you are talking about some system. They are probably thinking something along the lines watching people dump a bunch of money in and jumping in behind them, or predicting when a progressive jackpot will hit based on how high it is(famous last words, "I have never seen it get over x amount, it's ready/due to hit".)

    There have been mistakes made that allowed AP's to beat a slot for a period of time straight up.

    In order to beat slots, you must have something extra going on, such as....

    1) A progressive. It could be uncapped or a must hit progressive( linked or individual). jbjb, There's nothing wrong with playing an uncapped slot progressive, it would not be much different than playing a VP progressive as they are both uncapped. There are uncapped slot progressives that have shorter average jackpot cycles than a VP Royal cycle, such as Blazing sevens and Double Diamond(let's not forget multiway progressives). Slots are harder to calculate, however, there are ways to get fairly close, sometimes you can even get par sheets. I wouldn't want to play a slot that had a JP cycle in the millions. I have played some slot progressives where the cycle was in the hundreds of thousands.

    2) An accumulating bonus feature. That's really just a different type progressive, there are many examples of those type of machines.

    3) A community banking bonus feature.

    4) Casino promotions or marketing.
    How much money do AP’s have to put through any machine to figure out if the designers made any mistakes or design flaws? What’s the tip off there aren’t any flaws and for you to stop wasting money trying to find one on any certain game? Or, is this a secret move between secret AP players willing to share this information when they stumble onto an error? If so, how do you get into this group willing to share sacred AP secrets? The guy that stumbled onto that King video poker flaw, shared it with one person and between the both of them ended up locked up and broke.

    How do you get your hands on a machines par sheet? This has to be one of the most guarded parts of any slot machine. The last time I heard of something like this taking place was with Ron Harris back in the 90’s.

    Quote from Wikipedia :

    Ronald Dale Harris is a computer programmer who worked for the Nevada Gaming Control Board in the early 1990s and was responsible for finding flaws and gaffes in software that runs computerized casino games. Harris took advantage of his expertise, reputation and access to source code to illegally modify certain slot machines to pay out large sums of money when a specific sequence and number of coins were inserted.[1] From 1993 to 1995, Harris and an accomplice stole thousands of dollars from Las Vegas casinos, accomplishing one of the most successful and undetected scams in casino history.

    Don't overlook what Harris did above was in the early 90"s. Security has come a long way since then.

    Vulturing slots for accumulations towards bonus features, is well explained by MickeyCrimm here. You also have to be willing to except the outcomes and living conditions that type of play offers. Of course, it’s way better than being homeless.

    Waiting for progressives to become +EV to play, doesn’t guarantee you’re going to hit it. And if you got a team that takes every seat, you still have to chop it up between everyone along with working out undeniable tax liabilities.

    Chasing casino promotions usually always have a catch to them not resulting in instant cash in pocket.

    Where I’m asking this slot designer these AP questions, doesn’t seem to interest any of the hundreds of slot machine participants, or even the designer. This thread had 66K views and 1,100 posts, and not one gives one shit about alleged AP’s.

    Give me a question that might make the members and designer scratch their heads? Please, not about the obvious two bit accumulator vulture.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't any person in the top four or five in casino management have access to par sheets?

  9. #49
    I have no idea, but I would bet if they had access, the consequences for handing it to someone would be worse than rigging a game.

  10. #50
    I don't think having a par sheet is going to do you much good. I look at some actual par sheets in this article and you're better off playing video poker:

    https://www.nh.gov/gsc/calendar/docu...igan_dixon.pdf

  11. #51
    Originally Posted by blackhole View Post
    How much money do AP’s have to put through any machine to figure out if the designers made any mistakes or design flaws? What’s the tip off there aren’t any flaws and for you to stop wasting money trying to find one on any certain game? Or, is this a secret move between secret AP players willing to share this information when they stumble onto an error? If so, how do you get into this group willing to share sacred AP secrets? The guy that stumbled onto that King video poker flaw, shared it with one person and between the both of them ended up locked up and broke.

    How do you get your hands on a machines par sheet? This has to be one of the most guarded parts of any slot machine. The last time I heard of something like this taking place was with Ron Harris back in the 90’s.

    Quote from Wikipedia :

    Ronald Dale Harris is a computer programmer who worked for the Nevada Gaming Control Board in the early 1990s and was responsible for finding flaws and gaffes in software that runs computerized casino games. Harris took advantage of his expertise, reputation and access to source code to illegally modify certain slot machines to pay out large sums of money when a specific sequence and number of coins were inserted.[1] From 1993 to 1995, Harris and an accomplice stole thousands of dollars from Las Vegas casinos, accomplishing one of the most successful and undetected scams in casino history.

    Don't overlook the fact that what Harris did above was in the early 90"s. Security has come a long way since then.

    Vulturing slots for accumulations towards bonus features, is well explained by MickeyCrimm here. You also have to be willing to except the outcomes and living conditions that type of play offers. Of course, it’s way better than being homeless.

    Waiting for progressives to become +EV to play, doesn’t guarantee you’re going to hit it. And if you got a team that takes every seat, you still have to chop it up between everyone along with working out undeniable tax liabilities.

    Chasing casino promotions usually always have a catch to them not resulting in instant cash in pocket.

    Where I’m asking this slot designer these AP questions, doesn’t seem to interest any of the hundreds of slot machine participants, or even the designer. This thread had 66K views and 1,100 posts, and not one gives one shit about alleged AP’s.

    Give me a question that might make the members and designer scratch their heads? Please, not about the obvious two bit accumulator vulture.
    Just about everything you just wrote is so backwards, I barely even know where to start. You can find PAR sheets online. You don't need to play a game to figure out if it's AP'able, just read the rules and analyze it yourself. I doubt mickeycrimm played the jackpot rocket keno machines before figuring out, "Ya know what, this could be beatable...." Instead, he likely looked at the games, looked at the paytables, perhaps did a little bit of coin in to determine the meter rate, then went home and got to work analyzing the game.

    Pretty sure the two guys who played the double-up bug made quite a bit of money and didn't end being locked up.

    Taxes are easy, do a 5754 or give W2's (I think that's the right form) to another player. Or the simplest way -- just report how much you won or lost to the IRS and it doesn't matter who hit the jackpot and who didn't.

    Most of the time I play slots it's because there's a promotion or a "something else" attached to it. Rarely do I play slots where I can win at it straight up. Slot manufacturers aren't (I imagine) worried about slots being AP'able for different promotions....that's the casinos problem, not the slot designers.

  12. #52
    Sorry RS, but I'm convinced with fact conversation compared to alleged conversation your just another broken down shoe living in a two bit fantasy world, waiting to hit the lottery playing slots. This is a slot conversation. If your making millions playing other games, maybe this isn't the right thread for you.

  13. #53
    Having Par sheets is no magic key to the bank. The pay table on a video poker machine is similar to what a Par sheet is. Except the Par sheet tells you the number of virtual reel stops.

    Once again I refer you to what pkspins wrote. People will hit the winners on the slot machines, but the casinos only care about the overall hold. If people didn't win, no one would play. But the casinos still make their profit.

    This APing of slots doesn't alter the casino's win.

  14. #54
    It disappeared several years ago but a forum called Slot Machine Forum or something like that had a lot of discussions on slot machine possibilities based on PAR sheets. I had only started reading on it shortly before it disappeared so I didn't get far and don't remember much. But the thread I was in the middle of working my way through when it went away had to do with the Quick Hits Platinum slot machine, and how based on that PAR data one could tell when there were quick win opportunities based on how high certain progressives were, and how often the free games feature (which could be lucrative) was due to come up. One detail I do remember is that according to the PAR sheet the free games feature was due to come up every high 70s-low 80s number of spins (forget the exact number), and with the limited play I had on these that seemed to be true on average. Now there are almost countless different versions of Quick Hits but this was the original one that had a $1.50 max bet on pennies that was necessary to win the progressives and that had several progressives for #s of Quick Hit symbols on a payscreen (5-9) as well as the highest jackpot for getting 5 Platinums on a payscreen.

    But that was just one of many slot machines they were analyzing on there with tons of detail on machines that they had obtained PAR sheets for. Like I said I didn't get through much of it and absorbed very little but I think those sheets do offer some information that can be useful in finding opportunities that don't make themselves as visually apparent as coins in a jar or countdowns.

  15. #55
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    This is a statewide progressive? Otherwise how long does it take for one machine to reach a playable level?
    No, it's not a statewide progressive. The game is on about 700 machines in the state but they are all stand alone progressives. So each machine I check I have a chance of finding a play. I check the game in every casino I go into that has it. If the casino has two machines with this game on them then I have two chances to find a play. If it were a statewide progressive I would have to check only one machine to see where the numbers are.

    As far as how long it takes for a machine to develop a playable number it depends. It's just one of about 20 games on the machine and is not particularly popular with the public anymore. If I find a play on a machine and knock the meter down it could take a year for that particular machine to develop another playable number. Like I said I only make a few thousand a year off this particular game. It's just one of a couple of dozen different plays I work.

    The screenshots I put up show some rare huge edges. Most of the time I just find an average play like in the pic below. The average cost to produce a 4 out of 7 is about $1.80. So the average cost on this play is about $70 to take off a $130 meter, about a $60 earn for about 20 minutes seat time.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  16. #56
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    By the way if you're getting $5000 profit a month without a single W2G you've got a gold mine.
    Not quite. It's not all profit. I spend about half the days of the month on road trips around Montana. I'm on the hook for hotels, meals and gas but I try to keep it as cheap as possible. I've put 50,000 miles on my car in the last year. That's a lot of oil changes. I think I need my exhaust system inspected. I'll have to replace the tires before winter sets in.

    Rob always misrepresents every thing I say. I've said in the forums before that my best year in Nevada was 80K. And 2015 was a banner year for me here in Montana. I barely cracked six figures but that doesn't take expenses into account. It's the only year I ever cracked six figures. But that was because of one game where I was routinely getting big edges. That game is now gone so I'm back to scratching with the rest of the chickens.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  17. #57
    Originally Posted by RS__ View Post
    Just about everything you just wrote is so backwards, I barely even know where to start.
    If these guys were in charge of the NFL, the goalposts would be mounted on wheels to be shifted as desired throughout the game.

    If you explain that a previous situation was beatable, it's deemed irrelevant because all advantage opportunities are now extinct.

    If you explain that a current situation is beatable, it's deemed insufficiently profitable and you must be living in a homeless shelter.

    If you explain that a current situation is extraordinarily beatable, it's deemed useless because you're not guaranteed to win.
    Last edited by bocce ball; 09-28-2017 at 07:59 AM.

  18. #58
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm
    Not quite. It's not all profit. I spend about half the days of the month on road trips around Montana. I'm on the hook for hotels, meals and gas but I try to keep it as cheap as possible..
    I'm somewhat surprised that you don't own and travel in a vehicle that has a place for you to sleep, cook and live inside in it such as a conversion van, a pickup with a camper, or a small RV.
    What, Me Worry?

  19. #59
    Originally Posted by MisterV View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm
    Not quite. It's not all profit. I spend about half the days of the month on road trips around Montana. I'm on the hook for hotels, meals and gas but I try to keep it as cheap as possible..
    I'm somewhat surprised that you don't own and travel in a vehicle that has a place for you to sleep, cook and live inside in it such as a conversion van, a pickup with a camper, or a small RV.
    That's because he didn't think of that lie at the start of his tales. And, while a small ratty camper might fit his profile, he'd never be able to swing it. The US Govt. only subsidizes certain apartment dwellings, and he lives in one.

  20. #60
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    By the way if you're getting $5000 profit a month without a single W2G you've got a gold mine.
    Not quite. It's not all profit. I spend about half the days of the month on road trips around Montana. I'm on the hook for hotels, meals and gas but I try to keep it as cheap as possible. I've put 50,000 miles on my car in the last year. That's a lot of oil changes. I think I need my exhaust system inspected. I'll have to replace the tires before winter sets in.

    Rob always misrepresents every thing I say. I've said in the forums before that my best year in Nevada was 80K. And 2015 was a banner year for me here in Montana. I barely cracked six figures but that doesn't take expenses into account. It's the only year I ever cracked six figures. But that was because of one game where I was routinely getting big edges. That game is now gone so I'm back to scratching with the rest of the chickens.
    Tell us why you don't file tax returns, ever, mickey. That'll clear up a whole lot for these armchair "AP gamblers" who simply want and need your stories to be true.

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