Visiting Vegas after the shooting

[AxelWolf]

I have been ruffed up by security for simply playing A VP progressive.

Really? You were roughed up JUST for playing a VP progressive?

Yes, ruffed up, threatened and drug from just outside the casino into the backroom (some may say beaten, but there was no blood and nothing was broken). I suposes it was for being an Advantage Player, however, that was not even a term anyone really used back then, they just used the term pro. I had only been playing VP at that major strip casino(I may have played some slots on occasion prior). I hit a few nice VP jackpots here and there. At the time I was Just playing a $1 VP progressive that was around 10k. No warning or anything leadding up to that point.

[MisterV]

So they ruffed you up for playing VP using correct strategy?

Huh?

Does not compute.

Not disputing what you say, I just can't understand what would trigger them to focus on you.

Is there more to the story?

[kewlJ]

Yes, ruffed up, threatened and drug from just outside the casino into the backroom (some may say beaten, but there was no blood and nothing was broken). I suposes it was for being an Advantage Player, however, that was not even a term anyone really used back then, they just used the term pro. I had only been playing VP at that major strip casino(I may have played some slots on occasion prior). I hit a few nice VP jackpots here and there. At the time I was Just playing a $1 VP progressive that was around 10k. No warning or anything leadding up to that point.

So when was this Axel? 80's? 90's? Today this would result in a decent "payday". Not sure I would consider it +Ev, but at least there would be repercussions. Unless you are at an Indian Casino...they still do as they damn well please.

[Alan Mendelson]

I'm also skeptical. What else happened? What was your history at that casino?

[kewlJ]

I'm also skeptical. What else happened? What was your history at that casino?

I am not skeptical at all. I am just interested in the details. Anyone who has followed the numerous court cases involving card counter in the last 15-20 years, KNOWS the casino "goon squad mentality", that occurred before say...2000. You keep telling us that you are a journalist, Alan, are you not, at least familiar with these cases that have forced change on the casino industry?

That mentality is still in the process of change, here in vegas thanks in large part to Bob Nersesian, as every once in a while a casino forgets that they are no longer free to intimidate and beat up customers that they don't care for because they win.

And now with cases like the recent Maryland case, we see some of the newer jurisdictions begin to learn that same lesson. I suspect we will see a few more of those cases (outside Nevada) before it sinks in. The only one's immune to this are Indian casinos on Indian land, who are still free to do what they want and abuse and beat up customers at will....anything short of murder and they don't have to answer for it.

[MisterV]

I'd read about card counters and cheaters being roughed up, but was unaware that the casinos also targeted machine players who were not cheating.

[kewlJ]

I'd read about card counters and cheaters being roughed up, but was unaware that the casinos also targeted machine players who were not cheating.

The casinos don't like anyone who wins. I have seen casinos backoff blackjack players that were absolutely not counting. They were varying bets, but they were increasing at times of disadvantage and just happen to get lucky and win more of those big bets, and boom, "sir you are no longer welcome to play blackjack".

I have seen casinos 86 roulette players just because they were winning. They weren't cheating, nor using and legitimate system that would give them an advantage, just getting lucky and hitting more than their share of numbers and told they can no longer play. And that is in today's environment. Prior to the last 15 years, you weren't told you were no longer welcome to play, you were taken to the back room and beat up.

Casinos don't like players who win. And they do not differentiate between players cheating and players winning, nor do they differentiate between table and machine players. Casinos DON'T like players who win!

[Alan Mendelson]

I'd read about card counters and cheaters being roughed up, but was unaware that the casinos also targeted machine players who were not cheating.

Exactly right. There has to be something more. In fact, I know card counters who were told that they were welcome to play any of the slots or VP machines in a casino, as well as play craps and roulette, but they couldn't play blackjack anymore.

[Alan Mendelson]

I'd read about card counters and cheaters being roughed up, but was unaware that the casinos also targeted machine players who were not cheating.

The casinos don't like anyone who wins. I have seen casinos backoff blackjack players that were absolutely not counting. They were varying bets, but they were increasing at times of disadvantage and just happen to get lucky and win more of those big bets, and boom, "sir you are no longer welcome to play blackjack".

I have seen casinos 86 roulette players just because they were winning. They weren't cheating, nor using and legitimate system that would give them an advantage, just getting lucky and hitting more than their share of numbers and told they can no longer play. And that is in today's environment. Prior to the last 15 years, you weren't told you were no longer welcome to play, you were taken to the back room and beat up.

Casinos don't like players who win. And they do not differentiate between players cheating and players winning, nor do they differentiate between table and machine players. Casinos DON'T like players who win!

So would our friend who got roughed up playing video poker please tell us how much he was winning that prompted the security guards to rough him up?

I still think there is more to the story. I just can't imagine this actually happening without some history involved. Of course our friend Rob Singer has been told he couldn't play in certain casinos because he won too much money playing video poker. What's funny, is that so many of you doubted him when he said that.

[kewlJ]

Exactly right. There has to be something more. In fact, I know card counters who were told that they were welcome to play any of the slots or VP machines in a casino, as well as play craps and roulette, but they couldn't play blackjack anymore.

That is the very common line for backing off a card counter. Either "welcome to play other games, but no more blackjack" or a "you are too good for us, no more blackjack".

They probably subscribe to the idea that card counters are stupid and not smart enough to play with an advantage on other games. Maybe they are right in many cases. AP extraordinaire, James Grosjean has labeled us card counters as "salamanders".

I would bet when backing off a machine players casinos don't tell them they are welcome to play any other game. They probably figure if they are smart enough to play with an advantage on a machine, they are smart enough to count cards. Any of you machine pros been told you can play any other game?

[kewlJ]

Of course our friend Rob Singer has been told he couldn't play in certain casinos because he won too much money playing video poker. What's funny, is that so many of you doubted him when he said that.

Just out of curiosity, Alan, what proof do you have of this? I mean AP's say something about how much they make and you want to see tax returns. I mention that I track multiple tables when conditions are favorable and you insist on a demonstration. But Rob, who you describe as a friend says he has ben backed off at casinos and his word is golden? Is that not a double standard in journalism as well as everywhere else?

[Alan Mendelson]

Because I believe Rob because he published the damn letters from the casinos in Gaming Today.

By the way, do you also know that I was told to leave NYNY after winning at craps, and at MGM Grand I was told I could not throw the dice again?

I was also told to leave Bellagio years ago, but management later apologized and called it an error. And about two years ago a former host from Caesars got a job at Bellagio, invited me to play there, and said whatever was on my record there previously was no longer there.

[pkspins]

The casinos don't like anyone who wins. I have seen casinos backoff blackjack players that were absolutely not counting. They were varying bets, but they were increasing at times of disadvantage and just happen to get lucky and win more of those big bets, and boom, "sir you are no longer welcome to play blackjack".

I have seen casinos 86 roulette players just because they were winning. They weren't cheating, nor using and legitimate system that would give them an advantage, just getting lucky and hitting more than their share of numbers and told they can no longer play. And that is in today's environment. Prior to the last 15 years, you weren't told you were no longer welcome to play, you were taken to the back room and beat up.

Casinos don't like players who win. And they do not differentiate between players cheating and players winning, nor do they differentiate between table and machine players. Casinos DON'T like players who win!

Machine wise what I have seen is reduction or disappearance of offers. This has happened to me and also to someone I know, where large wins on minor bets on machine play have led to no-mail, no-offer situations.

[kewlJ]

Machine wise what I have seen is reduction or disappearance of offers. This has happened to me and also to someone I know, where large wins on minor bets on machine play have led to no-mail, no-offer situations.

Yeah that happens in blackjack too. Reduction or disappearance inn offers is probably the first countermeasure.

Unfortunately in vegas in the last couple years, when you all of the sudden get no mail or reduction in offers, it is hard to figure out if they are sending a message or just cutting back offers to everyone as mail offers have really gone in the toilet from where they used to be just a couple years ago. Cheap bastards!

[AxelWolf]

Yes, ruffed up, threatened and drug from just outside the casino into the backroom (some may say beaten, but there was no blood and nothing was broken). I suposes it was for being an Advantage Player, however, that was not even a term anyone really used back then, they just used the term pro. I had only been playing VP at that major strip casino(I may have played some slots on occasion prior). I hit a few nice VP jackpots here and there. At the time I was Just playing a $1 VP progressive that was around 10k. No warning or anything leadding up to that point.

So when was this Axel? 80's? 90's? Today this would result in a decent "payday". Not sure I would consider it +Ev, but at least there would be repercussions. Unless you are at an Indian Casino...they still do as they damn well please.

KJ, I was not even old enough to gamble in the 80's and even the early part of the 90's. This happened in the 90's.

I had already said this was a strip casino.

This was before AP's were getting all the big paydays for this kind of stuff, and yes, Bob N was the one who handled my case. I'm not sure how many AP cases he had before this, but I don't think it was many. I received about 1/5 what you make in a year. My friend, who was also an AP was involved, but he wasn't beaten, he saw what was happening to me and went to the backroom, none the less, we split the settlement. Had this happened just a few years later the payout probably would have been much bigger, and nowadays who knows. Not many people knew who Bob N was. I certainly didnt know who he was before that. He didnt even ask for a retainer or anything at that time.
-----------------------------------------------
Alan, I went to that casino off and on quite often to play whatever +EV stuff they had. I never really played table games or anything else there, other than some slots. As I said, I hit a few nice jackpots on VP progressives 2 or 3 a $1 and a $5 denom. I was even using normal food comps in the days prior to the incident. None of the employees had said anything that indicated there was anything wrong prior to that day.

On the day of the incident, I went in to play a VP progressive that was +EV. Security came up to me and asked me to cash out my coins and come with them. I said, "I will cash out my machine, but I'm not going in the back room with you, I'm just going to leave. I cashed out my coins and was walking towards the door and said agian I'm just going to leave the propertie now. They tried to force me into the security office/backroom that was close to the exit. When I got near or past the back room they grabbed me and started in. I was able to get out the doors, but they took me down just outside. As they had me down the one security guard said, "you are really going to get it now." I stopped struggling at that point and he pulled me in the backroom.

Luckily casino management showed up before I was drug in the backroom, or who knows what he would have done to me.

I called the police, and was detained untill they came. They came about an hour later. When the casino was asked(more than once) why they wanted to take me into the backroom, they said, "it was so they could take my picture and 86 me."The cops said that's a tricky situation, you have the right to take his picture but you can't do that unless you bring him back here, well, ok, but now you have to let them go."

A security soon after was advised to go file assault charges against me. The video shows that was a lie. I actually had my hands up in the air to show I was not a threat and not touching anyone just before they grabbed me.

It's all documented and there is a Video. I was never accused of doing anything other than playing their progressives when it was to my advantage. Its simple, they didn't like the fact I was only playing good stuff, winning and not giving the money back, they knew I was playing with an advantage whenever I played. They wanted me gone, they thought they had the right to take me to the back room to take my picture. They made sure to get me in there and use any force necessary to do it.

Again, There is nothing more to this regarding my history in the casino or me doing anything that prompted this. Had there been, you know damn well they would have brought it up during the deposition. I'm surprised they didn't try to make up some other BS.

A few years later Bob N asked if he could use my video in one of his CNN/MSNBC interviewsas as how bad casinos are and how they were illleaglly detaining pros. (or whatever major news station he was going on, I don't remember what one it was). He said he could blur my face. Blurring my face or not, I chose not to for many different reasons. One day I'll get the video and watch it again.

[kewlJ]

KJ, I was not even old enough to gamble in the 80's and even the early part of the 90's. This happened in the 90's.

I had already said this was a strip casino.

This was before AP's were getting all the big paydays for this kind of stuff, and yes, Bob N was the one who handled my case. I'm not sure how many AP cases he had before this, but I don't think it was many. I received about 1/5 what you make in a year. My friend, who was also an AP was involved, but he wasn't beaten, he saw what was happening to me and went to the backroom, none the less, we split the settlement. Had this happened just a few years later the payout probably would have been much bigger, and nowadays who knows. Not many people knew who Bob N was. I certainly didnt know who he was before that. He didnt even ask for a retainer or anything at that time.

Praise be to Mr. Nersesian, our hero and protector from evil (casinos).

Just out of curiosity, if you didn't know of Bob N at the time and he was just getting started in his work against casinos and didn't have that reputation, how did you get hooked up with him?

I'm surprised they didn't try to make up some other BS.

I too am surprised at this. I have seen a number of times where the casino make up things like creating a disturbance, disorderly conduct, even intoxication, when the patron in question has had nothing to drink. I mean, ya think someone will make a fuss, become a little disorderly, create a disturbance, while they are being tackled, punched, assaulted, dragged to the ground and eventually dragged to a back room and illegally detained, when they have done NOTHING illegal? Yeah I think someone just might be a bit agitated and create a little disturbance.

[OneHitWonder]

... mail offers have really gone in the toilet from where they used to be just a couple years ago. Cheap bastards!

You guys exist because of the casinos, not the other way around. A figment of their imagination. You just think that things are worse. Go figure that out.

[RS__]

That is the very common line for backing off a card counter. Either "welcome to play other games, but no more blackjack" or a "you are too good for us, no more blackjack".

They probably subscribe to the idea that card counters are stupid and not smart enough to play with an advantage on other games. Maybe they are right in many cases. AP extraordinaire, James Grosjean has labeled us card counters as "salamanders".

I would bet when backing off a machine players casinos don't tell them they are welcome to play any other game. They probably figure if they are smart enough to play with an advantage on a machine, they are smart enough to count cards. Any of you machine pros been told you can play any other game?

I've never been 86'd or asked to leave the casino due to card counting. It's always been something like, "No more blackjack, but you're free to play anything else."

Getting "caught" playing machines, it's never been a "You can play anything else, just no more XYZ". A few times I've gotten the ol', "Cash out and leave" -- I suspect because they didn't know what I was doing. The other times I've just been 86'd.

[MisterV]

What am I missing here?

Would the Eye focus on a VP player to see if he's playing perfect strategy, and then 86 him because of that?

[bocce ball]

Would the Eye focus on a VP player to see if he's playing perfect strategy, and then 86 him because of that?

I've never heard of that. I'd guess a typical situation would be exploiting an ill-conceived promotion. He may be playing with something like the 10% advantage mentioned hypothetically in the other thread. The suits may not understand exactly what's wrong, but may be sufficiently sentient to realize something's wrong. 86'ing the players gives them a feeling of problem solved.

Please note I am not speaking from personal experience.