Visiting Vegas after the shooting

[RS__]

What am I missing here?

Would the Eye focus on a VP player to see if he's playing perfect strategy, and then 86 him because of that?

I don't know how the EITS works regarding machine play stuff, but I'd have to imagine there's no way in hell a surveillance guy is going to be capable of doing that.

[Alan Mendelson]

I think the statement was just an exaggeration. He hasn't said a word. On to other things.

Would someone like to criticize me, for instance?

[AxelWolf]

KJ, I was not even old enough to gamble in the 80's and even the early part of the 90's. This happened in the 90's.

I had already said this was a strip casino.

This was before AP's were getting all the big paydays for this kind of stuff, and yes, Bob N was the one who handled my case. I'm not sure how many AP cases he had before this, but I don't think it was many. I received about 1/5 what you make in a year. My friend, who was also an AP was involved, but he wasn't beaten, he saw what was happening to me and went to the backroom, none the less, we split the settlement. Had this happened just a few years later the payout probably would have been much bigger, and nowadays who knows. Not many people knew who Bob N was. I certainly didnt know who he was before that. He didnt even ask for a retainer or anything at that time.

Praise be to Mr. Nersesian, our hero and protector from evil (casinos).

Just out of curiosity, if you didn't know of Bob N at the time and he was just getting started in his work against casinos and didn't have that reputation, how did you get hooked up with him?

I'm surprised they didn't try to make up some other BS.

I too am surprised at this. I have seen a number of times where the casino make up things like creating a disturbance, disorderly conduct, even intoxication, when the patron in question has had nothing to drink. I mean, ya think someone will make a fuss, become a little disorderly, create a disturbance, while they are being tackled, punched, assaulted, dragged to the ground and eventually dragged to a back room and illegally detained, when they have done NOTHING illegal? Yeah I think someone just might be a bit agitated and create a little disturbance.

I think I had a hard time getting anyone else to take the case. As I said, I think he had successfully taken on a few AP cases prior to that( I don't remember what ones or if I even had any knowledge of them). I put some feelers out and got a hit from someone I respected and trusted that knew Bob N had dealt with this kind of case prior. And the price was right, he took it on contingancy. At the time we felt as if we were lucky to get anything.

[AxelWolf]

I'd read about card counters and cheaters being roughed up, but was unaware that the casinos also targeted machine players who were not cheating.

Is happened more than you think to AP's playing machines.

Casinos look for people playing +EV machines over and over, that might prompt them to look at that players win's and losses. They look for players that are always playing promotions, especially on things they missed and end up getting crushed on. They look for guys who find holes in the promotions.
I was one of the first groups of people that had a registered letter sent to me from a casino telling me I was 86ed. Someone received one the same day and called me, I didn't sign for it or open it myself. To this day I won't accept or sign for something unless I know what it is. I have information that move was suggested by a notorious darkside consultant team.

I don't know what kind of people work in surveillance, but I can oftentimes tell who's an AP just by looking at them play for a few seconds. I don't even have to see what game they are playing.

Aside from there being more card counters and it's more well known as a way to beat the casino.
The reason back-rooming and problems seem to happen more on BJ. BJ players don't normally use a card. The casino has no idea who they are, so they demand to see an ID, that way they can ID you and a solid 86ing. BJ players usually refuse to show an ID. This really frustrates and upsets the security guards who then escalate things trying they get what they want. VP players usually have to use a players card to get cash back, comps and take advantage of promos. The casino has an idea who you are when they come for you, especially since they oftentimes scan your ID at the players club, or you have hit some w2g's. They don't really care if you show them your ID at that point.

[Alan Mendelson]

Axel I'm going to ask again, really?

I just find it hard to believe that casinos would care who is playing their machines and winning since machines have a built in edge and that's all they care about. And if it's a machine that is positive EV then the casinos recognize it's a loss leader.

I just have never heard of this happening -- with the exception of Rob. So, both you and Rob got 86ed because you won at machines???? And only that reason? You weren't impolite to staff people, or to other players, and you didn't drink too much, and you didn't make a mess on the machines????

[kewlJ]

Axel I'm going to ask again, really?

I just find it hard to believe that casinos would care who is playing their machines and winning since machines have a built in edge and that's all they care about. And if it's a machine that is positive EV then the casinos recognize it's a loss leader.

I just have never heard of this happening -- with the exception of Rob. So, both you and Rob got 86ed because you won at machines???? And only that reason? You weren't impolite to staff people, or to other players, and you didn't drink too much, and you didn't make a mess on the machines????

OMG! What is wrong with you Alan? Seriously....is there something mentally wrong with you? Axel JUST EXPLAINED in great detail the incident that occurred to him and you respond with "Really" "I just find that hard to believe". You simply refuse to believe things that aren't what you want to hear, and that don't fit your predetermined thoughts. You do this over and over and it is very frustrating.

Alan, you have proven time and time again, that you know nothing about advantage players, what it means to be an advantage players, and what advantage players go through in regarding their adversary relationship with the casino industry. Yet you continually, not only voice your opinion but challenge things about this topic you are completely clueless about. It really is quite infuriating.

[RS__]

Remember when Alan swore up and down hole-carding was just a bunch of nonsense and seeing the hole-card would barely ever help? Then he realized hole-carding isn't seeing the bottom card of the pack, but seeing a card that shouldn't yet be exposed (like the dealer's under card in BJ)? Then he swore up and down seeing the hole-card is a very rare event and even then, could put you in a situation where it doesn't help (ie: 6 showing, 10 under, player has a 9, 10, or 11).


This is literally like a mathmetician trying to explain to an 8 year old what "i" (square root of -1) is in math. The 8 year old doesn't know what negative numbers are let alone what a square root is. Yet the 8 year old heard from his 14 year old brother "you can't take the square root of a negative number, since no two numbers multiplied result in a negative number", so he tells us "so you're lying!!!" Please Alan, just save your breath, I don't feel like reading whatever silly response you have for this.

[Alan Mendelson]

I'm going to say it again: really?

He was roughed up ONLY because he was playing a video poker progressive machine? There was no other reason? Really?

[RS__]

One day I was walking down the street (on the sidewalk) with my friend. He wasn't too bright, actually, kinda stupid. Anyway, we got to a one-way street, as we crossed I looked both ways. My friend said, "How stupid can you be? This is a one way street, why would you look that way, no cars will be coming from that way! Hah!!"

Moral of the story: Don't assume other people are going to be logical in their actions.




Or put it a different way, Alan, would you believe him if he got roughed up for "only getting really drunk"? Or if he "only caused a commotion" or "only was rude to the waiters and staff"? Even if he did all those things, that wouldn't be reason enough to rough him up. Unless you realize maybe just maybe the security guard (or whoever it was) was a total dumbass.

[Alan Mendelson]

You're right. I don't think security guards would rough him up if he was unruly or drunk. But then he didn't tell us if he was drunk or unruly but ONLY that he was playing a video poker progressive.

Since I have never heard of anyone getting roughed up ONLY because they were playing a video poker progressive I'm going to ask again... really?

Has anyone else here ever heard of a player being roughed up ONLY because they were playing a video poker progressive?

Folks this has nothing to do with APs. This is about a guy getting roughed up ONLY because he was playing a video poker progressive. It's so unbelievable I'm just going to have to say... really?

[AxelWolf]

Alan,

I learned from early on to keep my head down in the casinos, so I didn't really talk to other players much(I do so more nowadays depending on the situation). I have always been a nice friendly guy, especially to casino staff, I tipped well(I even worked at a casino where I made tipps for a short time) and I'm nice to most people in general(less so now than when I was younger) I genrally look people in the eyes and smile or give them a friendly nod. FYI we were probably the only 2 people playing that paticular bank of machines at that time. There may have been one person down the way.

I only drank when I went out to clubs with friends or to a party, so that's a NO.

I could not stand messy machines myself, so that's a NO.

No, no and no for my friend as well. He rarely, if ever drank, he is a very clean tidy person and a super nice guy(too nice IMO).

AGAIN, THEY HAD NO REASON TO 86 ME OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT I WAS AN ADVANTAGE PLAYER WHO ONLY PLAYED POSITIVE EXPECTATION SITUATIONS(I may have put a few bucks here and there on somthing -EV.)

I have been 86ed many times for doing nothing other than playing good promos and or machines and winning.
People have been 86ed even after losing while playing good machines and promos. It's not all that uncommon among AP's. I have also been 86ed for calling gaming when the casinos would not honor promotions.

I have no idea why Rob has been banned. I can only assume from the way he acts here there could be a variety of reasons. Some could have complained he was scamming them with his bunk VP system.

If there had been ANYTHING else, even so much as a crooked hair on my head, they would have brought it up during the lawsuit.

I would consider talking to Bob N about getting copies of my deposition and discovery and the videotape and sending it to you as proof, but we all know how well that goes.

If you want to make it worth my time, effort and risk I would highly consider doing something along those lines.

[kewlJ]

Folks this has nothing to do with APs. This is about a guy getting roughed up ONLY because he was playing a video poker progressive. It's so unbelievable I'm just going to have to say... really?

This is where you are wrong. This has everything to do with advantage play. They determined he was an AP, because he only played +Ev plays....progressives, point multiplier days and promotions. They didn't call it AP or advantage play back then so they called him a "professional". Once they made the determination that he was an AP or "professional" he became an undesirable to them and they treated him just as they do other undesirables, like card counters and criminals, despite that he had done nothing illegal. Common practice until Bob Nersesian started taking on the casinos winning cases and settlements and changed that culture. Axel's account, is very believable because it is very similar to so many other casino abuse cases of AP's.

It is just another case of you not knowing or understanding about AP's and the advantage player/casino relationship, so you find it hard to believe. So you insult Axel by continuing with your "really?" "really?" "really?" comments. Each time you say "really?", you are basically calling him a liar. It's insulting. And it makes me wonder why anyone engages conversation with you?

[MisterV]

would consider talking to Bob N about getting copies of my deposition and discovery and the videotape and sending it to you as proof, but we all know how well that goes.

If you decide to mail it to him, don't send it to his office: he'll never see it.

[RS__]

I would consider talking to Bob N about getting copies of my deposition and discovery and the videotape and sending it to you as proof, but we all know how well that goes.

If you decide to mail it to him, don't send it to his office: he'll never see it.

He goes a few times a month, at least that's what I thought I read he wrote.

Edit: Found it. He only needs to be in the office 1-2 times a month. So it should take about 2-4 weeks, worst case scenario I imagine, before Alan sees it.

It's still at the office. I have a partner in the office. I don't need to be there except for once or twice a month. There's been no reason for me to go.

I never asked redietz to send it. He confirmed that. Sorry I'm not making a 20 mile one way trip for just the package.

[AxelWolf]

You're right. I don't think security guards would rough him up if he was unruly or drunk. But then he didn't tell us if he was drunk or unruly but ONLY that he was playing a video poker progressive.

Since I have never heard of anyone getting roughed up ONLY because they were playing a video poker progressive I'm going to ask again... really?

Has anyone else here ever heard of a player being roughed up ONLY because they were playing a video poker progressive?

Folks this has nothing to do with APs. This is about a guy getting roughed up ONLY because he was playing a video poker progressive. It's so unbelievable I'm just going to have to say... really?

I think there is a case that is talked about on GWAE where the guys were playing VIDEO BLACKJACK to earn points, (THE MACHINES WERE NOT COUNTABLE). Not much different than a VP progressive(unless you are too unknowledgeable about machines too understand that). I don't remember all the details, but I think it got fairly hairy. I bet RS or KJ know more details.

Did you see the thing in AC at Harrahs where the guards attacked a family including their 16-year-old daughter and took her to the ground? If they are willing to touch a 16-year-old girl while trying to walk back to her room, Imagine what they want to do to an AP. You need to wise up.

Are you somehow dumb enough to be under the impression the casino management told the security guards to go beat me because I'm an advantage player who was just playing a VP progressive? Management was no doubt watching the progressive because they knew it attracted pro's who only came in and played it when it got to x amount. The pros were hitting it frequently and then just leaving with the money. They knew their regulars who pumped it up were disappointed they didn't hit it. Now the casino has no chance to get that money back. The casino got sick of it and decided to watch for AP's playing progressives. Someone, probably surveillance, spotted us and contacted security and told them to 86 us.

Their normal Security procedure was probably to take people into the security office, take their picture and let them go, had they not committed a crime.

Since I knew I had done nothing wrong and they had no right to detain me, so I tried to leave. They assumed they had the right to do whatever it took to get me in the backroom to take my picture and 86 me. Security guards oftentimes think they are cops while in the casino, they think you must comply with their orders, and if you don't, they can use force.

[AxelWolf]

[QUOTE=MisterV;53601]

If you decide to mail it to him, don't send it to his office: he'll never see it.

It's obvious anytime someone has something that can prove him or his buddy Singer wrong, or prove AP is real, he will not officially report it. Or he will refuse to understand it. I have a feeling that's why he won't dare look at that package himself. He made sure to keep that package all second-hand information(3rd party?) probably so he can have something like plausible deniability or whatever you call it. He doesn't really want any evidence that will prove AP real or him and his buddy wrong.

I don't know what game he and Rob are playing. It almost seems as if he gets a cut of whatever Rob has going on with his BS system. It's as if it's in his best interest to help debunk legit AP. There is just some stuff that I know damn well he understands but refuses to admit its legit. The loss rebate discussion was a perfect example of his BS.

[tableplay]

There's preliminary, passive-aggressive stuff Casino management does before the '86:
1) Having security ask to see your id when you've done nothing wrong and look well over the age of 21, just to harrass you and hope you'll leave
2) Blocking your TITO voucher from machine redemption (based on your player's card in the VP machine) and forcing you to redeem it at the cashier's cage manually

[blackhole]

AGAIN, THEY HAD NO REASON TO 86 ME OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT I WAS AN ADVANTAGE PLAYER WHO ONLY PLAYED POSITIVE EXPECTATION SITUATIONS(I may have put a few bucks here and there on somthing -EV.)

I have been 86ed many times for doing nothing other than playing good promos and or machines and winning.

People have been 86ed even after losing while playing good machines and promos. It's not all that uncommon among AP's.

I don’t understand how so many alleged AP machine moves could endlessly still take place after reading Axel’s experiences back in the 90’s. Good enough moves today to employ all the alleged claims being made endlessly from all these different machine AP’s making a living off this stuff.

First, we’re told that casinos couldn’t care less about who wins these machine progressives, since it’s been planned already in the programming and the idiots that make them +EV are to fucken stupid to play them when their ready to cough it up. Then when their ripe the mathematical pro AP’s slip in and steal the jackpot without donating any money to get them +EV.

Now we’re being told that since the early 90’s the casinos were aware of this machine AP move, so much so that they were already 86’ing and beating the shit out of returning machine AP pros, (I guess with surveillance) who were stealing these jackpots time and time again leaving the stupid steady customers pissed off they never were winning them.

Did the casinos over the last 25 years improve on this surveillance or however they determine you’re a machine AP pro, or do they just no longer care about the customers that matter to them in 2017?

How do you guys pull this stuff off still today without issues? For promos and stuff, I’m sure you have to use a card. Kewlj says he uses cards to gain some +EV all the time. Kewlj has explained several times his clever maneuvering explaining how he was able to slip through the cracks counting cards for over ten years already. Wonder why all other card counting AP’s don’t do the same and are getting trespassed and 86’ed.

Now we got Axel the machine pro able to pull off the same feats playing machines even longer than Kewlj who still counts for 6 digits a year, and Axel who was identified and getting roughed up over 20 years ago. Is this feat also an AP secret?

I could only assume you’re a two-bit machine AP pro like Mickey, (playing where no one really gives a shit) or you’re a high end progressive jackpot machine AP pro constantly chasing down those jackpots in big venues.

So, which is it, they no longer care about pissed customers that don’t win and stop giving them their money back, or AP’s started to wear those glasses with fake eyebrows and mustaches confusing today’s surveillance?

[OneHitWonder]

So, which is it...

Another long post (which I didn't read) for nothing. Nobody here is making any money unless they prove it. Why all the sputter and bluster? You are so wrapped up in this idiocy, my friend.

[Alan Mendelson]

I just never heard before of any INNOCENT getting roughed up playing a progressive machine. So again did you have a questionable history? Were you known to be associated with other undesirables? Did they mistake you for someone else? Was the security team drunk?