Visiting Vegas after the shooting

[bocce ball]

I just never heard before of any INNOCENT getting roughed up playing a progressive machine.

You're going to tell me I'm nitpicking, but he didn't get roughed up for playing. He got roughed up for refusing to be detained.

[Alan Mendelson]

I just never heard before of any INNOCENT getting roughed up playing a progressive machine.

You're going to tell me I'm nitpicking, but he didn't get roughed up for playing. He got roughed up for refusing to be detained.

That's different from innocently JUST PLAYING a progressive isn't it?

What was his original statement? You tell me.

[bocce ball]

What was his original statement?

On the day of the incident, I went in to play a VP progressive that was +EV. Security came up to me and asked me to cash out my coins and come with them. I said, "I will cash out my machine, but I'm not going in the back room with you, I'm just going to leave. I cashed out my coins and was walking towards the door and said agian I'm just going to leave the propertie now. They tried to force me into the security office/backroom that was close to the exit. When I got near or past the back room they grabbed me and started in. I was able to get out the doors, but they took me down just outside. As they had me down the one security guard said, "you are really going to get it now." I stopped struggling at that point and he pulled me in the backroom.

[Alan Mendelson]

I have been ruffed up by security for simply playing A VP progressive.

THIS WAS THE ORIGINAL STATEMENT. The explanation came later.

[redietz]

So Alan's point is what? That refusing to be detained by non-police when you haven't done anything illegal is illegal?

Not much logic in that point. Nothing new.

[bocce ball]

The explanation came later.

Oh yes, sorry, you're correct Alan.

But I'm still not seeing the issue you're seeing. Axel was initially summarizing, then he gave further detail. He was "innocent."

[Alan Mendelson]

I updated my article to take note that Steve Wynn has scrubbed the unwritten rule that casino security guards do not carry guns. He says he has guards who now carry.

In the past the reasoning was "let them take the money and our guests are too valuable to get wounded in a shoot out." (my quotes, not anyone else's for all of you detail people.)

And the real reason was: I dont want to get the shit sued out of me when one of my idiot security guards shoots and inniocent person.

Imagiane what will happen when a security guard shoots a card counter.

I have been ruffed up by security for simply playing A VP progressive.

And so that no one accuses me of taking statement out of context THIS WAS HIS FULL POST.

[MisterV]

The bottom line seems to be that Alan seems to believe that Axel's claim stretches the bounds of credulity; sort of like "I've never heard of this before, nor have I seen it, so I question whether the claim is real."

[Alan Mendelson]

Of course he was innocent but guards didn't come up to him and rough him up because he was simply playing video poker. The story is now more complicated than that.

[Biloxi Bill]

Of course he was innocent but guards didn't come up to him and rough him up because he was simply playing video poker. The story is now more complicated than that.

[Alan Mendelson]

Next time Axel shouldn't say he got roughed up for simply playing video poker. Next time he should tell what really happened. Security asked him to go to their office and he resisted and then the situation got out of hand.

That is a lot different than he was innocently pressing buttons and security pounced on him in his seat.

[MisterV]

They had no right to detain him.

They attempted to detain him because of his +EV VP play.

[OneHitWonder]

They had no right to detain him.

Blumen

There is no hard and fast statute that says this, but this is what we have sued on many times. Of course, the juries have come back with various decisions. They have found in our favor at times and they have found against us at times. Each individual person has to evaluate their background. If you've been arrested many times in the past, then you might consider going along with them, because your lawsuit would pale in the eyes of a jury. Legally, the casino does not have a right to detain you if they do not suspect you've committed a felony.

Blumen

Give your true name because if you give a false name to a police officer they will probably arrest you for obstructing a police officer. It's possible that if you give a false name to a security guard, and he transmits it to the police officer, you could have some problems. But the security guard is nothing more than an employee of the casino. They have no right to demand any identification from you, save and except if they believe you're under the age of 21. In which case you should say, "I have no identification. I will leave."

http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/...t/blumenin.htm

They attempted to detain him because of his +EV VP play.

Who knows. Maybe, he was loitering like an AP, taking advantage of local coupons, or soliciting for prostitution. Who knows.

[blackhole]

So, which is it...

Another long post (which I didn't read) for nothing. Nobody here is making any money unless they prove it. Why all the sputter and bluster? You are so wrapped up in this idiocy, my friend.

Of course you didn't ... it's actually related to what this forum is about.

[OneHitWonder]

People spend years here, posting pictures, etc, yet never get around to the most important part. Shoring up their claims. To make such claims, in the first place, of casino success and what not is rather pointless, and misleading. It shows how people here "think". If you can't prove it, or find a decent way to prove it, then don't say it. Because most people don't know the difference.

[Alan Mendelson]

I don't know if security had a right to detain him. I know he was not roughed up for simply playing A video poker progressive.

Now you can continue with your discussion about rightful or wrongful detainer.

[blackhole]

If you can't prove it, or find a decent way to prove it, then don't say it.

I finally agree with something you said.

[redietz]

A friend of mine ran a security company. On occasion, I worked for him. My understanding was that employees of a club or casino or employees of a company hired by a club or casino cannot detain anyone unless there is clear direct evidence of a felony.

My understanding may be dated by 20 years. Regnis, any idea what current law has to say?

If I were not doing anything illegal, and casino security wanted to detain me, there's no way I would agree to it. It's kidnapping, plain and simple.

Alan seems to think that kidnapping someone is okay. Alan has some odd sensibilities.

[kewlJ]

A friend of mine ran a security company. On occasion, I worked for him. My understanding was that employees of a club or casino or employees of a company hired by a club or casino cannot detain anyone unless there is clear direct evidence of a felony.

My understanding may be dated by 20 years. Regnis, any idea what current law has to say?

If I were not doing anything illegal, and casino security wanted to detain me, there's no way I would agree to it. It's kidnapping, plain and simple.

Alan seems to think that kidnapping someone is okay. Alan has some odd sensibilities.

This is exactly correct. They can only legally detain someone if a crime has been committed and the police have been called. In the absence of that, escorting a player into the backroom, as an intimidation tactic, and forcing him/her to sign trespass paperwork is illegal.

It's been many cases over the last 20 years. Axel's case is very typical. I haven't heard that many involving machine play, as most I am familiar with many similar cases involving card counters, but almost the exact same details. Unquestionable casino abuse of power. Probably a hundred that are well publicized and we know about, but hundreds (plural) more that were settled quieter.

And these cases have ALL gone the same way in favor of the plaintiff (abused player). There have been very minimal cases that have been dismissed and most of those it is because a casino has managed to get a favorable judge, likely someone in their pocket. And even those cases, on appeal, the casino loses or settles. The funny thing is that most of these cases, the key evidence is the casino's own security footage. Wouldn't it be great if every criminal provided surveillance video of their crime.

AND this is why the climate has finally changed.....at least here in Nevada. Backrooming for anything other than a crime where police have been called is almost a thing of the past, except a few lingering cases where the casino or goons that work for them are slow to learn. What we are seeing is the newer jurisdictions around the country now being educated.

Here in Nevada, especially Las Vegas, that I am very familiar with, its all polite backoffs and occasionally trespass. Trespass don't carry the weight that Casinos's want you to believe it does, so even that is just a intimidation tactic.

[AxelWolf]

Next time Axel shouldn't say he got roughed up for simply playing video poker. Next time he should tell what really happened. Security asked him to go to their office and he resisted and then the situation got out of hand.

That is a lot different than he was innocently pressing buttons and security pounced on him in his seat.

And that's fine, you should have just said that in the first place. Why did you follow up with questions like this?

Alan: Axel I'm going to ask again, really?

I just find it hard to believe that casinos would care who is playing their machines and winning since machines have a built in edge and that's all they care about. And if it's a machine that is positive EV then the casinos recognize it's a loss leader.

I just have never heard of this happening -- with the exception of Rob. So, both you and Rob got 86ed because you won at machines???? And only that reason? You weren't impolite to staff people, or to other players, and you didn't drink too much, and you didn't make a mess on the machines????

So would our friend who got roughed up playing video poker please tell us how much he was winning that prompted the security guards to rough him up?

I still think there is more to the story. I just can't imagine this actually happening without some history involved. Of course our friend Rob Singer has been told he couldn't play in certain casinos because he won too much money playing video poker. What's funny, is that so many of you doubted him when he said that

Exactly right. There has to be something more. In fact, I know card counters who were told that they were welcome to play any of the slots or VP machines in a casino, as well as play craps and roulette, but they couldn't play blackjack anymore.

Axel I'm going to ask again, really?

I just find it hard to believe that casinos would care who is playing their machines and winning since machines have a built in edge and that's all they care about. And if it's a machine that is positive EV then the casinos recognize it's a loss leader.

I just have never heard of this happening -- with the exception of Rob. So, both you and Rob got 86ed because you won at machines???? And only that reason? You weren't impolite to staff people, or to other players, and you didn't drink too much, and you didn't make a mess on the machines????

Everyone knew, including yourself what I was getting at. But you want to play games. Even after I explained more you didnt say anything to point out my original statment was technicality flawed. I'm sure you knew all along, once I presented anything solid you would just come back and use the technicality in my original post. Is this the kind of journalist and reporter you are?