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Thread: just what is an AP player?

  1. #1
    I will admit I honestly don't know. Is it a person who sits at one machine for the day? Do they ever change machines? I would really like to know as I don't see me as a viable participant in other discussions here and for 10 years now I have never figured out this designation.

  2. #2
    It's complicated, and best learned by experience. I think that Alan has had a bad night, and has left the building, for the time being. I'm sure he can help to fill you in when he regains his "senses".

  3. #3
    Originally Posted by slingshot View Post
    I will admit I honestly don't know. Is it a person who sits at one machine for the day? Do they ever change machines? I would really like to know as I don't see me as a viable participant in other discussions here and for 10 years now I have never figured out this designation.
    In general, there is really never a reason to change machines unless there's a problem such as bad buttons, slow machine, a smoker near you, card reader malfunction, it's too loud/not loud enough, light reflections, loud music a better paytable opens up, you might want to play a different type of VP that has about the same payback, etc.

    Someone might move around on slots because there's a better bonus or progressive on a different machine, they might just be bored of that particular type of slot.

  4. #4
    Pretty straight forward isn't it? An advantage player is someone who seeks to play with an advantage (+expected value). It has nothing to do with playing professionally. There are many recreational AP's. It's just about trying to achieve a 100%+ return. And when I say "trying", well everyone is trying. The blue haired lady playing a 70% return slot is trying, but there is no reasonable expectation. AP's are playing games, conditions and techniques that make for a 100%+ return. That doesn't mean they will win that session, but the mathematical expectation is there.

    Now that said, I will be honest, when I hear or say the term AP, I am generally referring to professional AP's, rather than recreational AP's who certainly qualify as AP's. That's probably a bit "snobbish" of me.

  5. #5
    There are gray and illegal aspects to how far some people will go to win. And the cult following nature to it perpetuated by gambling authors and internet site owners. As well as the psychological bent toward living out of a shoebox with five other guys your whole life for the sake of a BR (beyond risk factors). And so on, until you begin to read between the lines to see what they aren't telling you. Personally, I don't think they end up any further ahead than the SP's. Some good ones in either bunch. Yes, Alan, too, is so "far" up there that it's hard to imagine him down there.
    Last edited by OneHitWonder; 10-14-2017 at 09:04 AM.

  6. #6
    From what I gather so far, it seems a large bankroll is required and it's "play until your bankroll is gone or your big hit?"

  7. #7
    Yes, while maintain a low risk-of-ruin over a number of years, and despite some stomach jarring ups and downs in it.

  8. #8
    I'm no AP, but if I were I'd seek a method of play wherein in was statistically probable that I would come out ahead in the long run.
    What, Me Worry?

  9. #9
    People talk a lot about good and bad psychology wrt gambling. The scary thing is that most of our psychology follows or is about winning and losing, in terms of addiction or other need. How then, do we know we are being honest with ourselves? We think about psychology because some sort of addiction has already stirred it.

    Even if a method of play seems statistically sound, now, we have to consider where we want to be ten years from now, and how much others things will change in the mean time.

    Tattoos come to mind.

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by slingshot View Post
    From what I gather so far, it seems a large bankroll is required and it's "play until your bankroll is gone or your big hit?"
    That's the opposite of what an AP should do.

    A Large Bankroll is not a requirement, you just need a BR that will cover the swings of whatever you are playing. It could be that only a small BR is needed or a very large BR is needed. For example, someone trying to vulture UX wouldn't need much of a bankroll. I'm sure you heard the story of Don Johnson? He needed a significant bankroll to pull that off.

    Some people use ROR, standard deviation and Kelly criterion to figure out what they need for a bankroll.

    Some plays are much safer than others.

    There's no real formula to figure out how much you need to be an overall AP and make a living at it. You never know what you might run into or what might disappear on you suddenly.

    Many AP's take potshots at things above their BR but they limit the amount they are going to risk. If they lose they just go back playing stuff within their bankroll until they can afford to do it again.

    Some AP's play under their bankroll and some AP's play over their bankroll. Everyone is in different situations. Someone might have a sugar daddy backing them, a rich spouse in case things go bad, rich parents, retired from a good job, an inheritance, another source of income.


    It also matters how motivated you are and how much time you put in. If you are motivated, watch what you play, think outside the box and network well, you don't need as big of a bankroll as you might think. You can get started with a very small BR(less than 5k), especially if you work with others.

  11. #11
    Plain and simple, it's someone that is playing with an edge over the game they're playing.

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    Plain and simple, it's someone that is playing with an edge over the game they're playing.
    So how do you play with an edge in video poker? I prefer bonus poker.

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by slingshot View Post
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    Plain and simple, it's someone that is playing with an edge over the game they're playing.
    So how do you play with an edge in video poker? I prefer bonus poker.
    Figure out a way to add more to the return than just the game itself so it goes over 100%. For starters you have cash-back, many places offer 0.3% CB. If you can find a game like NSUD (99.73%?), you're already breaking even just on the play itself + CB. Then add in mailers, promotions, slot tournaments, etc. Or if you know of a place that offers good mail, then just play and get lots of FP in the mail.

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by slingshot View Post
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    Plain and simple, it's someone that is playing with an edge over the game they're playing.
    So how do you play with an edge in video poker? I prefer bonus poker.
    playing the game by itself isn't an AP move. You need to find things that are 100%+

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by slingshot View Post
    From what I gather so far, it seems a large bankroll is required and it's "play until your bankroll is gone or your big hit?"
    That's the opposite of what an AP should do.
    Huh? You guys never go broke? You don't start with a large BR to make a larger one, hopefully much larger over the years? Certainly, it is all about risk-of-ruin, in any event. With far fewer of the better bets (with which to support yourselves).

    I like the way that you guys, including Alan, try to rewrite things to suit yourselves. The part about rich parents is precious. Lol.
    Last edited by OneHitWonder; 10-14-2017 at 02:50 PM.

  16. #16
    Different games will have different bankroll requirements. Card counters need much more than hole carders.

  17. #17
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    Originally Posted by slingshot View Post
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    Plain and simple, it's someone that is playing with an edge over the game they're playing.
    So how do you play with an edge in video poker? I prefer bonus poker.
    playing the game by itself isn't an AP move. You need to find things that are 100%+
    I have never seen any game in my casinos that are 100%. Even Deuces wild.

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by slingshot View Post
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    Originally Posted by slingshot View Post

    So how do you play with an edge in video poker? I prefer bonus poker.
    playing the game by itself isn't an AP move. You need to find things that are 100%+
    I have never seen any game in my casinos that are 100%. Even Deuces wild.
    And you won't outside of Nevada. Best I've seen is 40/10/6 DDB.

  19. #19
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    Different games will have different bankroll requirements. Card counters need much more than hole carders.
    Card counters need more to survive the odds, yes. But how often do you (legally) see a hole card?

    And what of quality or value of survival?

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by OneHitWonder View Post
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    Different games will have different bankroll requirements. Card counters need much more than hole carders.
    Card counters need more to survive the odds, yes. But how often do you (legally) see a hole card?

    And what of quality or value of survival?
    Playing one right now. Only it's not a blackjack game.

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