The Genealogy Thread

[mickeycrimm]

It's two different coins.

It's both sides of the same coin.

[Alan Mendelson]

Actually it does appear as an obverse and reverse shot of two coins. The toning/color aren't the same on both and the rim damage above VA in Nova doesn't appear in the photo of the other side.

But it's not unusual for numismatic publications to show photos of different obverses (heads) and reverses (tails) when showing colonial era coins because of their rarity.

Edited to add:

I looked this up and found there were many designs. So these photos are not necessarily an obverse and reverse of the same coin. We might have here two obverse shots of two different coins. And back then coins with only one side were minted. There is a catalog of New Jersey colonial coins but I can't get into it.

[OneHitWonder]

Quite different lettering, and struck differently.

[mickeycrimm]

Quite different lettering, and struck differently.

The two pictures were side by side online and represented as both sides of a Walter Mould Horsehead Penny.

[mickeycrimm]

deleted.

[Alan Mendelson]

Well, I did some more research. Indeed these New Jersey coppers had both an obverse and a reverse side. See: https://coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoin...-Copper.1.html

But I question whether or not the photos you have are of the same coin. Again, the toning/color appear to be of different coins, but more significant is that ding. A ding on the obverse would carry through to the reverse side.

However, this is just an academic argument. Your photos show the coin. Whether the obverse or reverse were from two different coins makes not difference.

[mickeycrimm]

Well, I did some more research. Indeed these New Jersey coppers had both an obverse and a reverse side. See: https://coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoin...-Copper.1.html

But I question whether or not the photos you have are of the same coin. Again, the toning/color appear to be of different coins, but more significant is that ding. A ding on the obverse would carry through to the reverse side.

However, this is just an academic argument. Your photos show the coin. Whether the obverse or reverse were from two different coins makes not difference.

The pictures I have came from page 4 of the link you put up.

[Alan Mendelson]

Well, I did some more research. Indeed these New Jersey coppers had both an obverse and a reverse side. See: https://coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoin...-Copper.1.html

But I question whether or not the photos you have are of the same coin. Again, the toning/color appear to be of different coins, but more significant is that ding. A ding on the obverse would carry through to the reverse side.

However, this is just an academic argument. Your photos show the coin. Whether the obverse or reverse were from two different coins makes not difference.

The pictures I have came from page 4 of the link you put up.

I'm glad you told me this. This site is showing the different pairings of obv and rev dies. The photos do not represent the same coins. They show different pairings.

But again, what's the difference?

[OneHitWonder]

Incidentally, it's a mark of higher intelligence or brain function to readily discern small differences from one shape or thing to an other.

[Alan Mendelson]

Incidentally, it's a mark of higher intelligence or brain function to readily discern small differences from one shape or thing to an other.

So can you tell the difference between a PCGS PR70 and a PR69 ?? LOL

[OneHitWonder]

Who was it that said our currency in life is how we relate to others?

[mickeycrimm]

Judge Symmes envisioned North Bend to be the center of commerce in the area. He requested Washington send an army detachment to build a fort there. One of his first sales of land was to a group of investors on a piece of land 16 miles upstream from North Bend. A settlement sprang up there named Losantiville.

Meanwhile, at Lexington, Walter Mould got sick and quickly died. His burial site is unknown to us. The young widow, Lydia Mould, had two young children with no visible means of support. She headed to North Bend for the protection of Judge Symmes and his wife, Anna Tuthill. Judge Symmes gave her a cabin on his property.

The army detachment arrived headed by Ensign Frances Luce. It was his job to find a suitable location for a fort then build it. He met the widow, Lydia Mould, and became quite infatuated. Judge Symmes became annoyed that Luce was spending more time around Lydia than looking for a location to build a fort. He kept pestering Luce to find a suitable place to build the fort. For some reason, during all of this, the young widow, Lydia Mould, up and moved to Losantiville taking her two kids, Elizabeth and Walter with her.

Judge Symmes thought it was great that she did because the young Ensign would not be distracted and would finally get around to building a fort. And the young Ensign did so. But not where Judge Symmes intended it to be. Ensign Luce suddenly decided that North Bend would not be the proper location for a fort, that, actually, Losantiville would be the better location. Could it be that a dart from Cupid had made Luce's decision for him? He up and moved his army detachment to Losantiville where he could carry on his courtship of Lydia Mould. And meanwhile, build a fort there too, much to the dismay of Judge Symmes.

Francis Luce married Lydia Mould....and built a fort--at Losantiville. The citizens of Losantiville changed the name of the town to Cincinnati. And Cincinnati grew to be the center of commerce on the Miami Purchase. Today, North Bend is a little town of less than 1000 in population. Cincinnati has a population of over 300,000. Ohio historians refer to Lydia Mould as "The black eyed beauty that changed the course of Cincinnati history." She is also one of my 4X great-grandmothers.

The story doesn't end here. Frances Luce and Lydia Mould married in 1790. Frances Luce's wedded bliss didn't last that long. Two years later he died of some unknown illness. Lydia remarried to John Bartles, who owned the first general store in Cincinnati, in 1793. They eventually moved across the Ohio River to Newport, Kentucky. This is where Lydia spent her final days. Her daughter, Elizabeth, grew up and married. Her son, Walter Jr., was apprenticed to James McGinnis, cabinet maker, in Cincinnati sometime between 1800 and 1805.

Lyda died in 1805. Her gravesite is lost to history. By 1806 handbills were being passed out in the area looking for young men to go on "an expedition of adventure." Young Walter Moulds seen one of the handbills and decided to make a move. In the Feb 11, 1806 issue of the Western Spy and Hamilton Gazette appeared this item:

TWENTY FIVE CENTS REWARD: Runaway from the subscriber; an apprectice boy to the cabinet making business of the name Waler Moules, he had on when he ran away a fur hat, black cape, black velvet pantaloons. He is stout built, large head, down look, a large scar on one of his cheeks occasioned by the kick of a horse, very lazy and fond of gambling, nearly 18 years of age. Whoever takes up said apprentice and delivers him to the subscriber in Cincinnati shall have the above reward. JAMES MCGINNIS.

Walter and several other young men had secretly ran off to Blennerhasset's Island in the Ohio River not far from Parkersburg, West Virginia. Arms, ammunition, provisions, and rafts were being built there. Then later that year former vice-president Aaron Burr, a political enemy of then President Thomas Jefferson, showed up at the Island. Walter had unwittingly signed up for the Burr expedition which intended to break off western territory from the United States and form a new country.

The flotilla headed downriver to New Orleans to take that city. Near Natchez, Mississippi, Burr got word that Jefferson had issued a warrant for his arrest. He and a dozen men bolted across the Mississippi Territory headed for Spanish held Florida and safety. But Burr was recognized and arrested near Mobile, Alabama. Walter was one of a dozen men still with Burr when he was arrested.

The warrant was not just for Burr. It was for everyone involved in the plot. Walter escaped arrest but considered himself a fugitive. To get lost he went northwest and homesteaded in what was then the wilderness of the Mississippi Territory. He married Lydia Depriest, who coincidentally, had the same first name as his mother. They had many children. The story of how he was born in New Jersey, grew up in Ohio, and the Burr Expedition led him to Mississippi, was a family secret until his death in 1850. His story passed down from generation to generation until it even reached me, a 3X great-grandchild of his. His story was eventually documented by Mississippi historians.

Walter Moulds is buried on the farm he homesteaded in Jasper County, Mississippi. The farm is still in possession of his descendents. My grandmother, Luna Moulds, grew up on that farm. There are about 270 Moulds families in Mississippi today, all his descendents.

So far we have not been able to determine who Walter's sister, Elizabeth, married and who her descendents are.

[mickeycrimm]

Elizabeth Warren just gave a speech to the National Congress of American Indians. It is an ongoing controversy as to whether she has Native American heritage or not. She says she does. Her political enemies say she doesn't. And a lot of genealogists say she doesn't. So who should I believe?

First of all I don't go for her politics. She's a lefty and I'm center-right. But that has nothing to do with whether she has Indian blood or not. My biggest early lesson in genealogy was don't believe what people say, especially another genealogist that makes statements but doesn't back it up with evidence. Expert genealogists say she doesn't have Indian blood but none of them have ever published any proof.

So I'm going to do my own investigation as time permits. I'll start a tree on her at Ancestry and fill it in with all the information I can find on her ancestors. I'll let you know what I find.

[mickeycrimm]

In her speech Warren said it was her mother who was of mixed race blood. That's a good lead. Saves me from having to investigate her father.

[quahaug]

My cheekbones are way higher than hers and I ain't no Indian!

[mickeycrimm]

My cheekbones are way higher than hers and I ain't no Indian!

That's not the kind of evidence I'll be looking for.

[MaxPen]

My grandfathers mother on my mom's side was a full blooded Cherokee. I have no resemblance of Indian at all. My aunt has jet black hair and high cheek bones. My mother does not and her other sister is kind of in the middle. My grandfather's dad was Scottish and my grandmother is full blood Danish.

[quahaug]

My cheekbones are way higher than hers and I ain't no Indian!

That's not the kind of evidence I'll be looking for.

That was a joke because that pinhead said her high cheekbones made her an Indian. Why not just take a dna test Pocahontas.

[quahaug]

I'm eastern European but my grandfather looked like Mao when he was older. I'm thinking we have Mongol, Hun or some other of the invading hordes dna.

[mickeycrimm]

My cheekbones are way higher than hers and I ain't no Indian!

That's not the kind of evidence I'll be looking for.

That was a joke because that pinhead said her high cheekbones made her an Indian. Why not just take a dna test Pocahontas.

She SHOULD take a simple autosomal DNA test at Ancestry. They only cost about $90 right now. A lot of white Americans think they have Indian blood when they don't. It's like a family myth that gets started somehow. I have an aunt that way. She swears we have Indian heritage. But my DNA tests say I'm 100% European.