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Thread: The final word on proving Dice Influencing

  1. #1
    When AxelWolf tried to buy this forum from me we had yet another discussion about dice influence and could it be proven.

    Here's my final cell phone text to Axel on the subject which I think should end the debate:

    "Tell the guys on the WOV forum that dice influencing cannot be proven unless someone slides the dice. DI only tries to limit rotation. Dice sliding is the only true control and 100% influence and it's not legal. It makes no sense to demand proof because none exists."

  2. #2
    That was a stupid assertion.

    If dice setting worked its viability could be proven because of course proof would exist.

    Hello slo-mo tapes.

    Duh-oh.
    What, Me Worry?

  3. #3
    You want 100% dice control? Here it is. Go ahead and turn on your slow motion recorder.


  4. #4
    Why would I need slo-mo to watch some swinging dick slide dem bones?

    The issue is NOT dice sliding, which is clearly illegal; and unlike DI, sliding can be proven to give a distinct edge to the shooter.

    The issue is "dice influencing." i.e. attempting to impart an element of control on the outcome via legal set, grip and toss.

    I'd have thought by now you'd have figured out the difference.
    What, Me Worry?

  5. #5
    Did you read my first post? You can't prove it. It's not provable. Only a slide is controlled. What are you arguing for?

  6. #6
    I am arguing because I vehemently oppose your claim that DI is not provable.

    The only reason no proof has been adduced is because true DI does not exist.

    Were it out there it would have been youtubed.

    How hard would it be to capture a roll of the dice on video with enough detail and at slow enough speed to see all the pips as they waft through the air, hit the table, bounce and then come to rest?
    What, Me Worry?

  7. #7
    DI is not provable because it comes in degrees of influence. The more influence the better your CHANCES of getting a good result. There is no magic dice delivery except a slide which is illegal.

    You critics expect perfection and numbers on demand but it doesn't happen. The fewer rotations and bounces you have only improves your chances for good luck.

  8. #8
    Poppycock.

    "Degrees of influence?"

    That's like saying there are "degrees of pregnancy."

    If DI worked, the dice would stay on axis from start to finish; anything else is just random.

    How can them tumbilng / bouncing only six times instead of nine times improve anything at all?

    Once the dice bounce or tumble off-axis they are acting randomly.
    What, Me Worry?

  9. #9
    It's been how many years since the DI craze started?

    It's been one of the most noteworthy seemingly possible AP moves around since the craze. It's Probably only 2nd to BJ. There have been some very smart, very motivated, very capable, well-funded guys out there trying to solve this puzzle for years. There have been TV shows, Books, classes, dedicated forums and websites, videos, It's been analyzed, practiced, and picked apart for years, and yet, no one has ever come up with ANY evidance it can yield an advantage.
    guaranteenrentee you there are some very smart AP's out there, who have thoroughly investigated. If they thought it was possible, they would have done whatever it took to take advantage of it. Even if that meant finding someone capable or developing someone who could.

    Please name another casino game that has had this much publicity, for even a fraction of the time, without someone showing proof it's beatable?

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by MisterV View Post
    Poppycock.

    "Degrees of influence?"

    That's like saying there are "degrees of pregnancy."
    No it's not.

    Some people have enough influence to keep two dice on the table.
    Some have enough influence to keep the dice hitting the back wall gently.
    Some have enough influence to keep the dice on axis.

    If you can do it all you have a better chance of getting a number fitting your set. The operative word is "chance." You are demanding a guarantee. There is no guarantee. There never was a guarantee.

    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    It's been analyzed, practiced, and picked apart for years, and yet, no one has ever come up with ANY evidance it can yield an advantage.
    Quite frankly there have been a lot of charlatans. Those youtube videos prove that much.

  11. #11
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    If you can do it all you have a better chance of getting a number fitting your set. The operative word is "chance."
    Really"

    "A better chance?"

    Says who?

    There is no proof, empirical or otherwise, that what you say is demonstrably correct.

    Oh sure, you "believe" it, it "makes sense" to you: so what?

    It's a quasi-religion, this dice-setting nonsense, with acolytes worshiping at felt covered altars while rolling the bones of their wannabe savior.

    Where's the beef?
    What, Me Worry?

  12. #12
    You absolutely cannot prove it. The whole idea behind DI is to LIMIT the movement of the dice to get better than a random roll.

    Since the only non random roll is a slide, which is not legal, there is no such thing as "controlled" dice. You influence them as best you can. The more influence, the more likely it will go right for you.

    It's always been that way. But along the way DI was confused with "control" and there is no "control."

  13. #13
    We differ as to whether a shooter can intentionally impart a positive influence on the dice.

    Of course every action a shooter takes "influences" the final outcome; no dispute there.

    Whether the actions of the shooter can cause an other than random result is the question.
    What, Me Worry?

  14. #14
    Ive seen three players who I think consistently influenced the dice to a meaningful degree. I try, but I can't do it.

    You might say I'm like kewlj reading and tracking two blackjack tables at once. Sometimes I can and sometimes I can't. But I don't claim any above normal ability.

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    You absolutely cannot prove it. The whole idea behind DI is to LIMIT the movement of the dice to get better than a random roll.

    Since the only non random roll is a slide, which is not legal, there is no such thing as "controlled" dice. You influence them as best you can. The more influence, the more likely it will go right for you.

    It's always been that way. But along the way DI was confused with "control" and there is no "control."
    Before we go any further on this subject with you, ever. You mentioned you seen 3 TRUE DI's. Can you tell me what you mean by that? No, I don't want you to describe their mechanics. I'm just asking if your definition includes the fact that they have an advantage over the house? Because, when you say, "True DI" people are under the impression you mean they have enough influence where they can and do change the odds in their favor and they can gain an advantage over the house.

  16. #16
    I usually try to stay out of these dice control arguments. As has been stated before, I was one and made a living doing so for 15 years or so. I was barred from shooting on more than one occasion. But I am not here to argue its validity. Rather I will point out that just like Kewl would never allow a simulation to be set up to prove he could count two tables (as was proposed), no dice controller would allow himself to be videoed either. Proof---as with all of these discussions there can be no proof.

    My worst experience was at Luxor where I had never played. I was at a family wedding and a few of us were playing. I had bought in for only 1/10th of my usual buy in as I was with family that didn't know the extent of my play. When I got the dice I got on a decent roll. Again--I had never played there before and was playing small stakes. The suit asked me for my license--I said no. He said they need it to rate me I said I don't want to be rated. He said that they have the right to identify me before allowing me to play. As we argued I kept making numbers and they kept hassling me. My family didn't know what was going on. When I saw security coming I grabbed my chips and odds on the pass and quickly left in the middle of my roll. I didn't ever get the $10 pass line bet back. That is one reason I don't make come bets.

    Later when I met up with everyone again they told me that the suits said I was cheating and to tell me if I set foot in there I'd be arrested. I then had to explain to them what was going on.

  17. #17
    I guess I should add that just like a card counter is looking for an edge of a few percentage points, a dice influencer is also looking for such an edge. So I'll let you mathematicians figure out what the edge is if I can roll a 7 1 of 10 rather than 1 of 6. Is that enough of an edge for you? It is not magic and you don't roll a certain number on command. However, if with your set and toss you can throw a certain number more than it's odds, that is another edge.

    My favorite number is 10, particularly hard 10. Secondarily I like 8. People still do talk about the day I rolled 18 8's at the Flamingo--no--not consecutively. On that day my stroke was so perfect that I almost could roll the 8 on command. That day alone I had 3 rolls of over 75 minutes, and a bunch of 30-40 minutes.

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by regnis View Post
    I usually try to stay out of these dice control arguments. As has been stated before, I was one and made a living doing so for 15 years or so. I was barred from shooting on more than one occasion. But I am not here to argue its validity. Rather I will point out that just like Kewl would never allow a simulation to be set up to prove he could count two tables (as was proposed), no dice controller would allow himself to be videoed either..
    Can I ask what you estimate your approximate edge at on average?

  19. #19
    Axel, what makes a DI is all about the mechanics of the shot.

    I recall on the WOV forum there was a guy with his own table and camera equipment who wanted to prove or disprove DI. The only thing he proved was that HE was not a DI. His dice bounced all over the place.

    You've never seen a DI video on YouTube... for the same reason regnis gave you above. I'm sorry to say but the gurus of DI failed to deliver every time I saw them. I admit, however, I never saw Scoblete play.

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by regnis View Post
    I usually try to stay out of these dice control arguments. As has been stated before, I was one and made a living doing so for 15 years or so. I was barred from shooting on more than one occasion. But I am not here to argue its validity. Rather I will point out that just like Kewl would never allow a simulation to be set up to prove he could count two tables (as was proposed), no dice controller would allow himself to be videoed either..
    Can I ask what you estimate your approximate edge at on average?
    Honestly I have no idea. I was playing a negative game and making bets that were not the best bets either. I primarily bet the 10 which, even buying it, is not a bet that "experts" would recommend. I don't bet pass or come as I don't want to cash every second time a number hits. So I give up that small edge and place or buy. I also pound the hard ways. So no--I really can't say what my edge was.

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