The final word on proving Dice Influencing

[AxelWolf]

Axel, what makes a DI is all about the mechanics of the shot.

I recall on the WOV forum there was a guy with his own table and camera equipment who wanted to prove or disprove DI. The only thing he proved was that HE was not a DI. His dice bounced all over the place.

You've never seen a DI video on YouTube... for the same reason regnis gave you above. I'm sorry to say but the gurus of DI failed to deliver every time I saw them. I admit, however, I never saw Scoblete play.

I know that's what matters. I just didn't want to get bogged down on that and hear what one is supposed to do (all over again for the 16th, 17th and 18th time). I have heard it agian and agian, I have seen "it", and I have practiced "it". You have described it very well a number of times, I agree with your description and that's what one would have to do IF it were possible.

Are you avoiding my other question, you know, the main point of what I was asking you?

[MisterV]

I usually try to stay out of these dice control arguments. As has been stated before, I was one and made a living doing so for 15 years or so.

Was your profit from craps shooting your sole income during that period, or did you have a job as well?

The term "made a living" implies it was your sole source of income, which I rather doubt.

Just out of curiosity, approx. what was your best year vs. your worst, income-wise?

Did you go to a seminar, buy a book: what?

[Alan Mendelson]

I usually try to stay out of these dice control arguments. As has been stated before, I was one and made a living doing so for 15 years or so. I was barred from shooting on more than one occasion. But I am not here to argue its validity. Rather I will point out that just like Kewl would never allow a simulation to be set up to prove he could count two tables (as was proposed), no dice controller would allow himself to be videoed either..

Can I ask what you estimate your approximate edge at on average?

Honestly I have no idea. I was playing a negative game and making bets that were not the best bets either. I primarily bet the 10 which, even buying it, is not a bet that "experts" would recommend. I don't bet pass or come as I don't want to cash every second time a number hits. So I give up that small edge and place or buy. I also pound the hard ways. So no--I really can't say what my edge was.

What the anti DI crowd doesn't understand is that shooters who can influence the dice have certain signature numbers -- numbers that they are more likely to hit. I don't know how to figure the math the way Axel wants it or the way any of the math guys want it.

Regnis said it right: craps is a negative expectation game. All you have to do is leave the table with more than you came with. Who cares about the math? It's the money that counts.

This is when I'm sorry Singer isn't here. Singer would simply say the math doesn't matter, and what matters is if you leave with more money than you came with. And Singer doesn't even play craps.

[RS__]

I think DI is somewhere between "100% impossible" and "so you're telling me there's a chance?" (Dumb and Dumber movie?).

With ONE exception, I've yet to meet or read about a DI that sounds like he knows what the hell he's talking about. I've yet to see a supposed DI answer VERY BASIC questions such as:

1. With some set X, what is your distribution of numbers? IE: If you do the flying 3V set or w/e you call it, how likely are you to roll a 2, 3, 4,...12? A "random shooter" would say 1/36, 1/18, 1/12, 1/9, 5/36, 1/6....etc. Same question for any and all other sets you use (the "hardway set" and "all 7's set" and/or whatever else you use).

2. What is your edge and/or EV per your 100 rolls, assuming you can play a game heads up?

3. How volatile or what is the variance of the game? What is your ROR?


These are all questions that should be easily answered by any DI, yet, they can never seem to answer them, as if they have no idea WTF the questions are even asking. It sure doesn't help they often also believe in some weird voodoo BS about pressing bets, having a positive vibe while at the table, being hydrated, thinking they get extra value because of some money management scheme, or whatever else they cook up.

DI's just love to talk about the dice staying on axis, not being able to hit a number on command, how frequently or infrequently they roll a 7, and how it's not a skill you can pick up overnight but it takes months and years of practice.

[AxelWolf]

I usually try to stay out of these dice control arguments. As has been stated before, I was one and made a living doing so for 15 years or so. I was barred from shooting on more than one occasion. But I am not here to argue its validity. Rather I will point out that just like Kewl would never allow a simulation to be set up to prove he could count two tables (as was proposed), no dice controller would allow himself to be videoed either..

Can I ask what you estimate your approximate edge at on average?

Honestly I have no idea. I was playing a negative game and making bets that were not the best bets either. I primarily bet the 10 which, even buying it, is not a bet that "experts" would recommend. I don't bet pass or come as I don't want to cash every second time a number hits. So I give up that small edge and place or buy. I also pound the hard ways. So no--I really can't say what my edge was.

WHY IS IT THAT A FUCKING "DI" CAN NEVER TELL ME WHAT THEIR APPROXIMATE EDGE IS? WTF IS THAT ALL ABOUT? Sorry, I'm not yelling at you. You don't know how many times I have asked that to a supposed DI, and yet, no one can ever come up with anything.

When I was practicing long, long ago(before the big craze, books, TV, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY BEFORE THE SLOW-MO-VIDEO ). I was skeptical, but I gave it a try since we had a real table from a real casino where they still had the same tables. How can you get better than that? The people I was with at least knew what their edge supposedly was when they made a bet. You have always been respectful to me and most everyone, I would like to keep it that way, but I have a few questions.

Highly skeptical you made a living via DI for 15 years. Please do elaberate.

[redietz]

I have to think that if someone made a living for 15 years via dice influencing, they aren't going to elaborate. What's the motivation?

If I made a living for 15 years with a particular skill set, say shooting pool or shooting free throws for money, I sure wouldn't elaborate regarding how I did it or why. That's intellectual property. It's worth something.

[AxelWolf]

Alan Mendelson,

Before we go any further on this subject with you, ever. You mentioned you seen 3 TRUE DI's. Can you tell me what you mean by that? No, I don't want you to describe their mechanics. I'm just asking if your definition includes the fact that they have an advantage over the house? Because, when you say, "True DI" people are under the impression you mean they have enough influence where they can and do change the odds in their favor and they can gain an advantage over the house.

[Alan Mendelson]

Axel... I saw them win. I saw them win at a negative expectation game. I know my surgeon friend won often. I think that means that they have an advantage over the house.

You've accused me of not being able to count to 18. You've also accused me of not hearing what the dealers and the other two players at the table said.

Now you're asking me to present math about the advantage of DIs? Gimme a break.

[AxelWolf]

I have to think that if someone made a living for 15 years via dice influencing, they aren't going to elaborate. What's the motivation?

If I made a living for 15 years with a particular skill set, say shooting pool or shooting free throws for money, I sure wouldn't elaborate regarding how I did it or why. That's intellectual property. It's worth something.

What was your modivation to chime in in the first place? I was not asking how you did it. I think MR.V covered a few of my questions.

I hate to ask this agian, perhaps just an over or under will do. Do you think you had over or under a 4% advantage over all?

[Alan Mendelson]

I have to think that if someone made a living for 15 years via dice influencing, they aren't going to elaborate. What's the motivation?

If I made a living for 15 years with a particular skill set, say shooting pool or shooting free throws for money, I sure wouldn't elaborate regarding how I did it or why. That's intellectual property. It's worth something.

What was your modivation to chime in in the first place? I was not asking how you did it. I think MR.V covered a few of my questions.

I hate to ask this agian, perhaps just an over or under will do. Do you think you had over or under a 4% advantage over all?

This is ridiculous. Give me an edge of 0.0000000001% and after enough time I'll have a billion dollars.

[AxelWolf]

Axel... I saw them win. I saw them win at a negative expectation game. I know my surgeon friend won often. I think that means that they have an advantage over the house.

You've accused me of not being able to count to 18. You've also accused me of not hearing what the dealers and the other two players at the table said.

Now you're asking me to present math about the advantage of DIs? Gimme a break.

No need for math. I just wanted to know if when you use the words TRUE DI if you mean they have a mathematical advantage over the house. You can claim someone is a TRUE DI but mean that in a deceptive way(in the air and land it in the target zones gently kissing the back wall)

Many people can influence the dice with a very good looking shot. Just like you have described, however, it's not enough to gain an advantage.

[AxelWolf]

I have to think that if someone made a living for 15 years via dice influencing, they aren't going to elaborate. What's the motivation?

If I made a living for 15 years with a particular skill set, say shooting pool or shooting free throws for money, I sure wouldn't elaborate regarding how I did it or why. That's intellectual property. It's worth something.

What was your modivation to chime in in the first place? I was not asking how you did it. I think MR.V covered a few of my questions.

I hate to ask this agian, perhaps just an over or under will do. Do you think you had over or under a 4% advantage over all?

This is ridiculous. Give me an edge of 0.0000000001% and after enough time I'll have a billion dollars.

With enough money, the chances are you would go broke at some point before that.

[AxelWolf]

Oh shit!!!

To be continued... I didn't realize it was so danm late. TM is Turkey Day. Everyone have a Happy Thanksgiving.

[Alan Mendelson]

I would gladly meet up with any math guy who would watch and record my shooting at craps. Then tell me what the math says about my throws. Do I have any kind of an edge? Any special numbers? Anything of mathematical note. I'm not claiming I'm going to win, I just want to find out what you're talking about. Any casino in LV or surrounding area.

[redietz]

I have to think that if someone made a living for 15 years via dice influencing, they aren't going to elaborate. What's the motivation?

If I made a living for 15 years with a particular skill set, say shooting pool or shooting free throws for money, I sure wouldn't elaborate regarding how I did it or why. That's intellectual property. It's worth something.

What was your modivation to chime in in the first place? I was not asking how you did it. I think MR.V covered a few of my questions.

I hate to ask this agian, perhaps just an over or under will do. Do you think you had over or under a 4% advantage over all?

I don't even play craps.

My motivation was that it seemed like an illogical request. Unless somebody's on their death bed, and maybe not even then, why would they be motivated to explain details of how they did something?

While, as a civilian regarding craps, I find it strange no one tallied exact figures during or after practice runs, I can see the utility in not doing so. If I'm practicing free throws, I'm surely not going to jot down on a pad between shots a stroke for each shot and a line through it for a make. It would be onerous and interrupt the practicing. Now free throws I can keep in my head (at least up until a hundred) and there's no multiple numbers, so that's easy. Mentally keeping a craps tally in one's head seems tough. It would be like keeping some tally of "free throw hit back rim," "free throw was short," "free throw was off left," and so on. Hard to concentrate on what you're doing when you're keeping counts like that.

[Alan Mendelson]

A "true DI" is simply someone who really can influence dice. I'm a DI in that I usually can keep the dice softly hitting the center of the back wall. But my dice don't rotate on Axis in a sufficient percentage of the time. They don't hit the table surface and gently roll together to the wall in a sufficient percentage of the time.

[MisterV]

A "true DI" is simply someone who really can influence dice. I'm a DI in that I usually can keep the dice softly hitting the center of the back wall.

Wow, they softly hit the back wall.

And that makes you a DI?

The ability to roll dem bones somewhat softly?

I guess maybe by your definition I too am a DI; I "influence" the dice every time I roll them, as they usually come to rest at on the far end of the layout, just as I want them to.

Wow, who knew?

Hello, bragging rights.

Time to write a "how to" book and start some seminars, with maybe a couple meet n greets at the casino to cement my bonafides to the sheeple.

This is getting exciting now.

Perhaps with money mgt. / smart betting I too will win millions from the casinos doing this.

Thanks for opening my eyes, I can finally see clearly.

*cough*

[Alan Mendelson]

No. Just softly hitting the back wall isn't enuf. Keep reading. I explained where I'm lacking.

But getting back to those three -- they had it all.

I will never be able to be a true DI. My hands shake from the anti rejection med I take.

Why do you deliberately take things out of context?

[RS__]

I have to think that if someone made a living for 15 years via dice influencing, they aren't going to elaborate. What's the motivation?

If I made a living for 15 years with a particular skill set, say shooting pool or shooting free throws for money, I sure wouldn't elaborate regarding how I did it or why. That's intellectual property. It's worth something.

What was your modivation to chime in in the first place? I was not asking how you did it. I think MR.V covered a few of my questions.

I hate to ask this agian, perhaps just an over or under will do. Do you think you had over or under a 4% advantage over all?

I don't even play craps.

My motivation was that it seemed like an illogical request. Unless somebody's on their death bed, and maybe not even then, why would they be motivated to explain details of how they did something?

While, as a civilian regarding craps, I find it strange no one tallied exact figures during or after practice runs, I can see the utility in not doing so. If I'm practicing free throws, I'm surely not going to jot down on a pad between shots a stroke for each shot and a line through it for a make. It would be onerous and interrupt the practicing. Now free throws I can keep in my head (at least up until a hundred) and there's no multiple numbers, so that's easy. Mentally keeping a craps tally in one's head seems tough. It would be like keeping some tally of "free throw hit back rim," "free throw was short," "free throw was off left," and so on. Hard to concentrate on what you're doing when you're keeping counts like that.

Why would asking for rough details on how someone did something be weird? No one's asking anyone to reveal anything of value or worth keeping a secret.

Did he play on a team, did he play high stakes, if he was on a team were there other DIs or was he the only shooter, how much time did he spend practicing vs actually playing, what kind of an edge did he have, around what years did he play and does he think it's still possible today (I understand the pyramids or alligator teeth are a "new" feature on craps tables), etc.

Once the supposed DI has gotten his form and mechanics down, assuming his IQ exceeded 60, he would be tallying every single dice throw in practice (and run the numbers to ensure he has a verifiable edge on the bets he's playing).

[MisterV]

You were into this voodoo DI shit before your medical procediure; I assume your hands didn't shake back then, so I assume therefore that you were once / then a "true DI?"

That is, when your hands didn't shake massive winnings you did make, right?