How would you play this casino offer?

[coach belly]

A guy makes an $1100 bet on a football game in your sports book. The house edge is 4.5%. That equates to $50 in expected value. How much are you willing to give him in the way of comps?

If a guy makes $2M in football bets, and the house edge is 4.5%, then that equates to $90K in expected value ?

How much should he receive in the way of comps?

How about wagering $2M on 9/6 JOB...what's the house edge, the house EV, and how much should the comps be?

[Alan Mendelson]

Yesterday I played 10/6 Double Double Bonus at Red Rock but at 25-cents. Started with $20 and cashed out $100 after a lucky short run.

You were AP'ing???? Say it ain't so!!!

Or was it the 40/straight flush variety?

When you walk into the main entrance of Red Rock there are a few 100% machines (four). But the damn machines are right by the door and it was freezing. I played them on the way out after playing craps.

Now here's some bulletin news for craps players: Red Rock pays $19 on a $10 bet on the place 4 and 10 and there's no vig.

At every other casino I've played at a $10 bet on 4 or 10 is paid $18.

[tableplay]

If you are allowing bubble/machine craps and machine roulette to fall within the definition of a slot machine then the answer to your question is that you can do close to a full hedge on slots. For VP, I have not encountered or heard of hedge-able machines.

I just did the math, and it puts sports betting in perspective. If you put $2,000,000 through the till at the Wynn in 100 days (the length of the college football regular season), you're guaranteed lunch each day. Draw your own conclusions.

Can you hedge or middle VP or a slot machine?

[coach belly]

If you are allowing bubble/machine craps and machine roulette to fall within the definition of a slot machine then the answer to your question is that you can do close to a full hedge on slots.

Under what circumstances would machine craps or roulette be considered a slot machine?

[mickeycrimm]

A guy makes an $1100 bet on a football game in your sports book. The house edge is 4.5%. That equates to $50 in expected value. How much are you willing to give him in the way of comps?

If a guy makes $2M in football bets, and the house edge is 4.5%, then that equates to $90K in expected value ?

How much should he receive in the way of comps?

How about wagering $2M on 9/6 JOB...what's the house edge, the house EV, and how much should the comps be?

I can't make a comparison because I'm not a sportsbettor. I have no idea what they receive in comps. But one problem I see is by tracking your bets thru $2,000,000 in action they can tell how good you are.

[mickeycrimm]

If you are allowing bubble/machine craps and machine roulette to fall within the definition of a slot machine then the answer to your question is that you can do close to a full hedge on slots.

Under what circumstances would machine craps or roulette be considered a slot machine?

They are electronic so they are slot machines.

[Alan Mendelson]

I question whether "bubble craps" is a slot machine.

Slot machines must have a guaranteed minimum return. But there is no guaranteed minimum return in craps.

So for bubble craps to be a slot the game must be rigged.

The same is true for these automated roulette games. Are they slots and if so they must be rigged for a guaranteed minimum return.

Now, you tell me?

[Alan Mendelson]

A guy makes an $1100 bet on a football game in your sports book. The house edge is 4.5%. That equates to $50 in expected value. How much are you willing to give him in the way of comps?

Lose $500 at Caesars Palace playing anything and you'll get zero in comps.

[mickeycrimm]

I question whether "bubble craps" is a slot machine.

Slot machines must have a guaranteed minimum return. But there is no guaranteed minimum return in craps.

So for bubble craps to be a slot the game must be rigged.

The same is true for these automated roulette games. Are they slots and if so they must be rigged for a guaranteed minimum return.

Now, you tell me?

My guess is state auditors report the money these games make under the heading of "Slot Win."

[mickeycrimm]

vpFREE2 says the Wynn has NSUD, 99.73%, and cashback on the card of .167%. That's a 99.897% return. So $2,000,000 in action has a theoretical $2060 loss. 365 lunches would average to a cost of $5.65 a day plus tip.

I just reread redietz post. You get lunch for only 100 days so the cost for lunch is $20.60 plus tip per day.

[mickeycrimm]

A guy makes an $1100 bet on a football game in your sports book. The house edge is 4.5%. That equates to $50 in expected value. How much are you willing to give him in the way of comps?

If a guy makes $2M in football bets, and the house edge is 4.5%, then that equates to $90K in expected value ?

How much should he receive in the way of comps?

How about wagering $2M on 9/6 JOB...what's the house edge, the house EV, and how much should the comps be?

The house edge at 9/6 is .46%. But the Wynn card is worth .167%. The expected loss is $5,060. So the cost of lunch for 100 days is $50.60 plus tip.

[mickeycrimm]

How about wagering $2M on 9/6 JOB...what's the house edge, the house EV, and how much should the comps be?

You'll have to ask casino personnel how much the comps should be. That's not a question a player can answer. Every house is different.

[tableplay]

If you are allowing bubble/machine craps and machine roulette to fall within the definition of a slot machine then the answer to your question is that you can do close to a full hedge on slots.

Under what circumstances would machine craps or roulette be considered a slot machine?

In my previous post I wrote that it is up to you to decide if you think they are or aren't. If you don't consider them to be slot machines then there aren't any hedge-able slot machines, as far as I know. If you do then, I have named them (actually machine baccarat is now out there from Interblock Gaming as is Sic Bo).

P.S. When you see a "one station per player" sticker on each of the machines of a bubble craps station, you know that an AP got to it and was playing two stations for a hedge play (cranking up comps) before the casino caught on . . .
Obviously the way around this is to be bring a friend.

[mickeycrimm]

Slot machines must have a guaranteed minimum return. But there is no guaranteed minimum return in craps.

I'm not a craps expert and don't know the bubble craps layout but I think the worst bet in craps is the Any Seven. It's 5 to 1 against and pays 4 to 1. You figure the return by dividing 5 by 6 for 83.3333%. That fits Nevada state law which I think is at least a 75% return. The bet has a 16.7% house edge.

As far as video poker goes a person can easily destroy the return of the game, well below the state minimum, by card selection....like holding 8-6-3 offsuit ensuring the biggest hand you could hit would be 3 of a kind. And the odds would be 119 to 1 of even that happening.

[AxelWolf]

I question whether "bubble craps" is a slot machine.

Slot machines must have a guaranteed minimum return. But there is no guaranteed minimum return in craps.

So for bubble craps to be a slot the game must be rigged.

The same is true for these automated roulette games. Are they slots and if so they must be rigged for a guaranteed minimum return.

Now, you tell me?

More fucked up logic from the greater fool.

Slot machines must have a guaranteed minimum return/payback ACCORDING TO THE MATH. A slot machine is not rigged to guarantee a certain payback. IE. slot machines do not have a self balancing mechanism that forces a minimum payback/return at some or any point(I'm not sure what the correct term is, payback or return, so just in case you are going to try to play word games again, I'm using payback and return to mean the same thing, I have seen them both used to mean the same thing).

IIRC. From what I have read per gaming, when they test slot machine chips they run a 100k "spin test" and it must have an average payback/return that's within a certain percentage of the stated payback/return(not just within the state min payback). It's been a while since I read the regulation(the number of spins needed and how far off the % they can be may have changed with all the new complex slots they have now). I don't recall how far off it can be, I seem to remember it was within a few percent. I'm not sure what conditions they put on machines that have very high jackpot cycles.

A slot machine can and will return/payback under 75%(the state minimum) to any number of players at any given time. If a machine is placed in a casino and it gets minimum play, there's a possibility it only paid back/returned 70% or less and the casino could take that machine out.

VP also falls under slots and they work the same way as slots do, according to THE MATH they must have a minimum payback/return. As we all know, people can play in a way that would almost guarantee them a long-term payback that's significantly less than the minimum payback. YOU CAN'T DO THAT WITH ROULLET OR CRAPS. If you take an automated roulette game and bet all the spots, YOU WILL HAVE A GUARANTEED PAYBACK. In the long run, while playing Bubble craps or E/A table games you will have a guaranteed min payback

[coach belly]

Under what circumstances would machine craps or roulette be considered a slot machine?

They are electronic so they are slot machines.

Axel...are machine (bubble) craps and/or automated roulette "slot machines" ?

[AxelWolf]

Under what circumstances would machine craps or roulette be considered a slot machine?

They are electronic so they are slot machines.

Axel...are machine (bubble) craps and/or automated roulette "slot machines" ?

As always, laws and regulations can change.

But, from my understanding, they are considered slot machines as far as Nevada State gaming and the casinos are concerned. That is how they are licensed. A casino that is not licensed for table games could have one in their casino. From what I understand, slot machines that use dice or cards must be random. However, I have seen slots and or VP that use dice and or cards as part of a bonus that don't seem to be random.

I have tried to find out(I didn't try that hard) if a casino had the option to choose how they wanted to license E-table games. I think they pay a lesser tax percentage on slots, so it would make sense they would always want to choose slots.

I think both are as random as they can get. Why do I care how they categorize them? Well, if there's ever a glitch one would have to worry if they were categorized as a table game since past posting on a table game is illegal.

If you look on WOV it seemed that someone had convinced Mike there seemed to be enough evidence that warranted some attention. They claimed that one of the E-roulette games(Organic roulette IIRC) were capable of and employing a way to avoid sections of the wheel as a countermeasure to foil wheel clockers.

[Alan Mendelson]

I question whether "bubble craps" is a slot machine.

Slot machines must have a guaranteed minimum return. But there is no guaranteed minimum return in craps.

So for bubble craps to be a slot the game must be rigged.

The same is true for these automated roulette games. Are they slots and if so they must be rigged for a guaranteed minimum return.

Now, you tell me?

More fucked up logic from the greater fool.

Slot machines must have a guaranteed minimum return/payback ACCORDING TO THE MATH. A slot machine is not rigged to guarantee a certain payback. IE. slot machines do not have a self balancing mechanism that forces a minimum payback/return at some or any point(I'm not sure what the correct term is, payback or return, so just in case you are going to try to play word games again, I'm using payback and return to mean the same thing, I have seen them both used to mean the same thing).

IIRC. From what I have read per gaming, when they test slot machine chips they run a 100k "spin test" and it must have an average payback/return that's within a certain percentage of the stated payback/return(not just within the state min payback). It's been a while since I read the regulation(the number of spins needed and how far off the % they can be may have changed with all the new complex slots they have now). I don't recall how far off it can be, I seem to remember it was within a few percent. I'm not sure what conditions they put on machines that have very high jackpot cycles.

A slot machine can and will return/payback under 75%(the state minimum) to any number of players at any given time. If a machine is placed in a casino and it gets minimum play, there's a possibility it only paid back/returned 70% or less and the casino could take that machine out.

VP also falls under slots and they work the same way as slots do, according to THE MATH they must have a minimum payback/return. As we all know, people can play in a way that would almost guarantee them a long-term payback that's significantly less than the minimum payback. YOU CAN'T DO THAT WITH ROULLET OR CRAPS. If you take an automated roulette game and bet all the spots, YOU WILL HAVE A GUARANTEED PAYBACK. In the long run, while playing Bubble craps or E/A table games you will have a guaranteed min payback

AxelWolf thanks for answering my question. It was a question. Your insult was not needed. But for years you've done nothing but insult me every chance you had. Thanks again for answering the question you fucking asshole.

Now with that said the return on slot machines is figured from the Par sheets and the virtual stops. Are there Par sheets and virtual stops on bubble craps? Aren't those dice supposed to be random? Where do you get the required 75% return under Nevada law?

[mickeycrimm]

They are electronic so they are slot machines.

Axel...are machine (bubble) craps and/or automated roulette "slot machines" ?

As always, laws and regulations can change.

But, from my understanding, they are considered slot machines as far as Nevada State gaming and the casinos are concerned. That is how they are licensed. A casino that is not licensed for table games could have one in their casino. From what I understand, slot machines that use dice or cards must be random. However, I have seen slots and or VP that use dice and or cards as part of a bonus that don't seem to be random.

I have tried to find out(I didn't try that hard) if a casino had the option to choose how they wanted to license E-table games. I think they pay a lesser tax percentage on slots, so it would make sense they would always want to choose slots.

I think both are as random as they can get. Why do I care how they categorize them? Well, if there's ever a glitch one would have to worry if they were categorized as a table game since past posting on a table game is illegal.

If you look on WOV it seemed that someone had convinced Mike there seemed to be enough evidence that warranted some attention. They claimed that one of the E-roulette games(Organic roulette IIRC) were capable of and employing a way to avoid sections of the wheel as a countermeasure to foil wheel clockers.

Off the top of my head I remember that the regulation governing randomness of electronic games uses the phrase "card, ball, or dice."

[AxelWolf]

I question whether "bubble craps" is a slot machine.

Slot machines must have a guaranteed minimum return. But there is no guaranteed minimum return in craps.

So for bubble craps to be a slot the game must be rigged.

The same is true for these automated roulette games. Are they slots and if so they must be rigged for a guaranteed minimum return.

Now, you tell me?

More fucked up logic from the greater fool.

Slot machines must have a guaranteed minimum return/payback ACCORDING TO THE MATH. A slot machine is not rigged to guarantee a certain payback. IE. slot machines do not have a self balancing mechanism that forces a minimum payback/return at some or any point(I'm not sure what the correct term is, payback or return, so just in case you are going to try to play word games again, I'm using payback and return to mean the same thing, I have seen them both used to mean the same thing).

IIRC. From what I have read per gaming, when they test slot machine chips they run a 100k "spin test" and it must have an average payback/return that's within a certain percentage of the stated payback/return(not just within the state min payback). It's been a while since I read the regulation(the number of spins needed and how far off the % they can be may have changed with all the new complex slots they have now). I don't recall how far off it can be, I seem to remember it was within a few percent. I'm not sure what conditions they put on machines that have very high jackpot cycles.

A slot machine can and will return/payback under 75%(the state minimum) to any number of players at any given time. If a machine is placed in a casino and it gets minimum play, there's a possibility it only paid back/returned 70% or less and the casino could take that machine out.

VP also falls under slots and they work the same way as slots do, according to THE MATH they must have a minimum payback/return. As we all know, people can play in a way that would almost guarantee them a long-term payback that's significantly less than the minimum payback. YOU CAN'T DO THAT WITH ROULLET OR CRAPS. If you take an automated roulette game and bet all the spots, YOU WILL HAVE A GUARANTEED PAYBACK. In the long run, while playing Bubble craps or E/A table games you will have a guaranteed min payback

AxelWolf thanks for answering my question. It was a question. Your insult was not needed. But for years you've done nothing but insult me every chance you had. Thanks again for answering the question you fucking asshole.

Now with that said the return on slot machines is figured from the Par sheets and the virtual stops. Are there Par sheets and virtual stops on bubble craps? Aren't those dice supposed to be random? Where do you get the required 75% return under Nevada law?

The par sheets and virtual stops are the dice (the math on dice and craps has been around for a very long time)

I have no doubt the bubble craps manufacturers had to show dice shaking mechanism and the dice were churning out random results over a significant amount of rolls.

The Nevada state minimum payback has been known for years, I couldn't even tell you where I got that information from, I assume it was back when I worked at a casino. It's been stated in many publications and I'm sure it can be found online from the NSGC.