How would you play this casino offer?

[mickeycrimm]

Here's a screenshot of the Nevada Gaming Control Board Gaming Revenue Report for Oct. 2017. On the left you can see the heading Games and Tables. You will see craps and roulette listed. By the heading "Games and Tables" this is obviously for the live games. Down below you will see the heading Slot Machines. This is the only section that the stats for electronic craps and roulette would qualify to be recorded in. It may be under Multi-Denominations or Other Slot Machines.

[Alan Mendelson]

Axel have you ever played or observed bubble craos? The dice are bounced around by a vibrating floor and then the dice are subjected to a thrust in the floor. There are no virtual reels.

The dice have a device (some sort of chip) that the machine detects to report how the roll finished.

There is no way to predict a minimum 75% return.

So how can bubble craps fall into the slot category?

Is bubble craps exempt from the 75% rule? Is roulette?

I fully know and understand how virtual reels and virtual stops are used to forecast a return on the game. Bubble craps and roulette do not have that.

Explain it again slowly.

[kewlJ]

Axel have you ever played or observed bubble craos? The dice are bounced around by a vibrating floor and then the dice are subjected to a thrust in the floor. There are no virtual reels.

The dice have a device (some sort of chip) that the machine detects to report how the roll finished.

Alan, are you SURE this is how it works? I just assumed that the "bouncy floor" wasn't really what determined the roll of the dice. I figured it was all computer generated and that bouncy floor and was just for appearance.

I don't play real craps or bouncy bubble craps, so I don't pretend to know anything, but it would seem to my "simple" mind, that if that bouncy floor was really determining the rolls, that would be a very non-random method. I am interested to hear what others more 'in the know' think.

[kewlJ]

A while back I talked about a blackjack side bet last summer at Sunset Station. The same table/side bet was available at one of the lower strip casinos, maybe Tropicana, I forget. So the way it worked was the side bet cost $1 and if you got a blackjack, they handed you a big button that spun a wheel above the table to win a bonus amount. The wheel had like 10 spots on it, a couple $5 spots, a couple $10 spots, a couple $25 spots, a $50, a $100, a $500 and a jackpot which was several thousands dollars and grew each time the wheel was spun.

I immediately knew this couldn't be legit as you could expect a blackjack every 21 hands or so, so every 210 hands or so, you should hit the jackpot (if it was legit). In playing this game regularly for a number of weeks, players hit the $5 and $10 bonus like 99% of the time and the other times where $25. So when I raised the issue, the pit lady told me the odds were not 1 in 10 as they appeared on the wheel. There was really hundreds of $5 slots, hundreds of $10 slots and just one or two of the others. The odds of hitting that "jackpot were not the 1 in 10 that it appeared but 1 in 1000 or maybe 1 in 10,000.

So that whole wheel, had nothing to do with the REAL spin. The real spin was computer generated. That wheel was just a visually appealing prop. This is kind off what I figured the whole bouncy floor dice was....just a visually appealing prop, with the real results computer generated.

[Alan Mendelson]

Axel have you ever played or observed bubble craos? The dice are bounced around by a vibrating floor and then the dice are subjected to a thrust in the floor. There are no virtual reels.

The dice have a device (some sort of chip) that the machine detects to report how the roll finished.

Alan, are you SURE this is how it works? I just assumed that the "bouncy floor" wasn't really what determined the roll of the dice. I figured it was all computer generated and that bouncy floor and was just for appearance.

I don't play real craps or bouncy bubble craps, so I don't pretend to know anything, but it would seem to my "simple" mind, that if that bouncy floor was really determining the rolls, that would be a very non-random method. I am interested to hear what others more 'in the know' think.

Yes.

[AxelWolf]

Axel have you ever played or observed bubble craos? The dice are bounced around by a vibrating floor and then the dice are subjected to a thrust in the floor. There are no virtual reels.

The dice have a device (some sort of chip) that the machine detects to report how the roll finished.

There is no way to predict a minimum 75% return.

So how can bubble craps fall into the slot category?

Is bubble craps exempt from the 75% rule? Is roulette?

I fully know and understand how virtual reels and virtual stops are used to forecast a return on the game. Bubble craps and roulette do not have that.

Explain it again slowly.

Of course, I have played bubble craps.

Before I go any further into this conversation, I want to make sure you are not trying to play some word games again, where you spring some technicality shit on me or whatever.

It just seems so simple to me, I can't even comprehend why you don't understand- so much so that it feels as if I'm being trolled.

I am talking about a theoretical return/payback. That theoretical payback must show up during testing over a certain amount of trials (give or take a few percentage). From my understanding, if the game involves skill like Video Poker, they have some type of standard of how the average person would play(that's a different discussion.)

There is no way to predict a minimum guaranteed 75% return/payback on most games in NV, not even slots.
I say most games because there are situations where you can predict and guarantee a specific payback/return.

Let me ask you a question: How do they determine a video keno or video poker return/payback? How do they calculate the theoretical payback on a table game? This is exactly how they do it on bubble craps and all other E-table games. A slot machine uses a PRNG instead of dice. Dice, cards, bubble craps shakers, roulette balls/wheels, flipping coins and PRNG's are all the same to me.

Again, there is no way to gurantee any return/payback on most games NOT EVEN ON SLOTS.

Here is an example. Let's say they have a slot machine set up in a location that's only open 12 hours a day, on this machine you can bet 1 to 1000 units. Mrs. Ima Winner comes in daily and plays 1 coin/unit very slowly all day long. He has been coming in for months and is down a total of 1000 units. One day Ima is out sick. Mr. Larry Loser comes in and bets 1000 units and loses all 18 spins in a row. It's possible a slot machine set at 85% could be spun a million+ times and never get above 75%.

[RS__]

Alan's just trolling, big surprise. Not worth reading his shit. Blocked (again). I advise everyone else to block him and to stop wasting your time responding to him.

[Alan Mendelson]

I can tell you exactly how they determine a video poker payback: from the pay table. I play 8/5 Bonus poker and i don't think I ever had a session that gave me the "expected value" or expected payback.

I think the keno machine payback can be figured the same way: from the pay table and the number of combinations.

I started another thread. I sent an email to the media relations department of the maker of Shoot To Win craps and I asked them: is your machine a slot machine or a table game? They do say on their website it is a "mechanical craps game." I didn't see any mention that it was a slot machine.

Let's wait for their answer.