Bubble Craps

[Travis McGee]

Aruze Gaming based in Vegas is the maker of Shoot To Win Craps. On their website they call it mechanical craps. They do not refer to it as a slot machine.

I emailed them and specifically asked if it's a slot machine and if it is how does it comply with the regulation of a minimum 75% return.

I'll post their response. I emailed their media relations department.

I have charted over 10,000 rolls on the Aruze Shoot To Win Craps machine in Las Vegas using the Trinity Method ( http://www.trinitymethod.info/ ) and I can testify that the machine is indeed a slot machine with pseudorandom number generator, also known as a deterministic random bit generator. This was verified during a personal face to face interview with a Nevada Gaming board agent that said the machine does by law meet the 75 percent requirement, but is often in the 91% range every time he has personally field tested them or seen the numbers.

I also interviewed the Manager of Table Games for Aruze that is in charge of the Aruze Shoot To Win Craps machine at the G2E Conference in Las Vegas and he confirmed that all casinos treat his machine as a slots machine. He also said he gets complaints often from casinos that the return on his Aruze Shoot To Win Craps machine is not as high as most slots machines in the casinos and that it takes up more room. Hence, the reason sweatjoints like Sam's Town, SouthPoint and M Casino removed their Aruze Shoot To Win Craps machines.

[Alan Mendelson]

Travis, how does the RNG control the two big dice?

[kewlJ]

So 24 hours ago in a different, "how would you play this" thread, Alan stated that the "bouncy floor" was responsible for 'tossing' the dice. I was pretty sure he was wrong and asked if he was sure of this. Alan gave a defiant, one word answer "Yes".

Turns out, Alan wasn't sure of anything, because what he described is NOT the way it works. It couldn't be, because that wouldn't be random. But the point is, here is Alan definitively stating something as fact, that he has no idea about. AND turns out he was dead wrong.

The problem is this is not an isolated incident. This scenario has played out over and over and over again. Alan saying something that just isn't true and he is later proven wrong (which he never accepts). Alan gets some sort of notion or idea in his head, from God knows where, and states it as fact. Alan, you have got to be like the worst journalist ever. Stop making shit up and stating them as fact!

[Travis McGee]

Travis, how does the RNG control the two big dice?

Alan, it is not the RNG, but a PRNG or DRBG. Sure parts of the machine can satisfy RNG qualifications like the vibration plate, but overall the machine is considered a DRBG. I don't believe you will ever get the exact DRBG and "how" as that is a company trade secret. However, the Trinity Method videos and manual break down how to beat the algorithm.

An Aruze (a Philipines company BTW) maintenance mechanic verified to me that the big red dice have an RFID chip and showed me the inside of the big red dice. He also showed me the DOS looking program that reads the RFID chip so that they know when to replace die A or die B if it is not getting the wanted results.

[Travis McGee]

Alan, do you have any plans to e-mail/call Interblock Luxury Gaming Products (http://www.interblockgaming.com/) to ask them the same question (they also are a major manufacturer of machine craps) ? What if their opinion differs from Aruze Gaming and you never solicited an opinion from them on this matter ? Which companies' opinion gets priority if their opinions differ ? What's for certain is that machine craps (bubble craps) is not a table game since table games require a dealer(s)/stickpersons.

tableplay, many virtual machines do have an algorithm that is not a pure random number generator (RNG). For reference see the Florida State Gaming Commission testimony when considering the interBlock's Organic machines. Expert reports were introduced to the State of Florida that proved these InterBlock Organic machines are not purely random.

Basically, the InterBlock Organic machines get the desired computerized generated numbers based upon players bets and desired Casino hold. The result is rarely random, but instead deterministic. As with most casino machines that are virtual or part virtual, you are playing against a computer that calculates a predetermined slot hold for the casino based upon gaming regulations. There are not as many InterBlock Organic craps machines in Las Vegas (2 white dice) as the rest of the county (with 3 dice) and we only have about 2,000 rolls charted. However, the data indicates that the InterBlock Organic craps are much tighter and produce a better profit for the casino than Aruze. In my experience, The Lucky Dragon is the worst for the consumer compared to MGM and Santa Fe. My best profits on InterBlock Organic craps was at Aria, but they removed theirs shorly after I had a few big wins there using the Trinity Method. Bellagio also took out their InterBlock Organic craps.

[Travis McGee]

BTW, I went to InterBlock's old offices by the airport when they 1st came to Las Vegas to ask them about their Organic craps. Their offices were on the other side of the airport tunnel before they had their craps machine approved by the Nevada Gaming Commission, but now they have moved their offices over by the rest of the big slot companies. Their old offices were locked with a doorbell. They would not let me in but instead sent a representative to talk to me outside for about 20 minutes. If it was a pure RNG system, what would they have to hide?

I also met with the Head Marketing guy at MGM who told me the Chairman of MGM is good friends with the owner of InterBlock and did them a favor by putting their games near Hakkasan Nightclub to garner all the club traffic. The business problem is the Hakkasan Nightclub requires people to stand in line and so the MGM Interblock gaming area sits empty while thousands stand in line just a few feet away for hours.

[Alan Mendelson]

Travis, how does the RNG control the two big dice?

Alan, it is not the RNG, but a PRNG or DRBG. Sure parts of the machine can satisfy RNG qualifications like the vibration plate, but overall the machine is considered a DRBG. I don't believe you will ever get the exact DRBG and "how" as that is a company trade secret. However, the Trinity Method videos and manual break down how to beat the algorithm.

An Aruze (a Philipines company BTW) maintenance mechanic verified to me that the big red dice have an RFID chip and showed me the inside of the big red dice. He also showed me the DOS looking program that reads the RFID chip so that they know when to replace die A or die B if it is not getting the wanted results.

Thank you, this makes sense. The RNG controls the table plate and the RFID chip is read by the machine sensors. This is how the game was described to me. It would also make sense that one or both dice would be replaced from wear and that could be when certain results show too often. After all that is a reason why real dice are changed at a real craps table -- dice get worn and worn dice may not be fair dice.

Now to another topic and that one thing is clear here, kewlj is anti Alan. He just loved to lash out and blast me for allegedly being wrong, but I wasn't.

So 24 hours ago in a different, "how would you play this" thread, Alan stated that the "bouncy floor" was responsible for 'tossing' the dice. I was pretty sure he was wrong and asked if he was sure of this. Alan gave a defiant, one word answer "Yes".

Turns out, Alan wasn't sure of anything, because what he described is NOT the way it works. It couldn't be, because that wouldn't be random. But the point is, here is Alan definitively stating something as fact, that he has no idea about. AND turns out he was dead wrong.

The problem is this is not an isolated incident. This scenario has played out over and over and over again. Alan saying something that just isn't true and he is later proven wrong (which he never accepts). Alan gets some sort of notion or idea in his head, from God knows where, and states it as fact. Alan, you have got to be like the worst journalist ever. Stop making shit up and stating them as fact!

Of course kewlj doesn't like me because I won't swallow his claim that he can count two blackjack tables at once. Frankly, he's admitted that it can be done only under a few conditions so I don't really care anymore what he claims. The only thing I care about is when he makes threats.

[Alan Mendelson]

So 24 hours ago in a different, "how would you play this" thread, Alan stated that the "bouncy floor" was responsible for 'tossing' the dice. I was pretty sure he was wrong and asked if he was sure of this. Alan gave a defiant, one word answer "Yes".

Turns out, Alan wasn't sure of anything, because what he described is NOT the way it works. It couldn't be, because that wouldn't be random. But the point is, here is Alan definitively stating something as fact, that he has no idea about. AND turns out he was dead wrong.

The problem is this is not an isolated incident. This scenario has played out over and over and over again. Alan saying something that just isn't true and he is later proven wrong (which he never accepts). Alan gets some sort of notion or idea in his head, from God knows where, and states it as fact. Alan, you have got to be like the worst journalist ever. Stop making shit up and stating them as fact!

Here ya go kewlj. Read for yourself: http://www.crapspit.org/bubble-craps-machine/

[RS__]

Don't take a thing seriously that Travis McGee is writing. Look at the link he provided (trinity method) and you'll see it's a complete scam.

[mickeycrimm]

I have a friend who worked this game here, the Aruze Dealer's Angels Blackjack. You can see that the dealer is animated. According to my friend it was a 4-deck game and you could see the shuffle point. The animated dealer would actually shuffle the cards. The shuffle point was reached at the 80th card dealt. That would be 38% penetration. All five stations played from the same deck. So he would sit down on the console playing one machine betting $1. Once the dealer shuffled the cards he would start the count and continuing to bet just $1. Different consoles had different max bets. But for instance, with good counts he would go from betting 1 machine at $1 to betting all 5 machines at $20. I think that is a 1 to 100 betting spread. He said that some consoles had a $100 max bet.

According to my friend he wasn't the only one exploiting these consoles and to stop the AP's from beating them Aruze wound up having to reconfigure the game where the shuffle point couldn't be seen.

Kewlj, you are the blackjack expert here. Do you think this game was exploitable under the conditions I described? I think RS might be a blackjack player too. So what is you guys opinion here?

[Travis McGee]

CAUTION - OFF TOPIC

Don't take a thing seriously that Travis McGee is writing. Look at the link he provided (trinity method) and you'll see it's a complete scam.

RS, Although you are entitled to your opinion, I do not understand how you can form an opinion and make it public without ever having read my book, seen my videos or spoken to me about my craps betting ideas. What basis do you or any one else have to express negative and disparaging remarks about me, my products and my company? My assumption is that you have no basis whatsoever since my office has informed me you are not a purchaser of any of our products.

Please consider this a Cease and Desist notice. If I hear you are making any further negative references to me, my company or products I will file a lawsuit against you for defamation.

[mickeycrimm]

You can sue me to because your system is bunk.

[mickeycrimm]

Travis, you picked the wrong site to push your product. There are professional gamblers here that know better. Based in probability theory there is no craps system that can overcome the house edge and that includes the system or systems that you sell. I don't have to buy your product or read your material to know that it is bunk. If you sue me I will counter sue you for fucking with me. Not only that but I will blast it all over the internet that you sell bunk craps systems.

[MisterV]

Please consider this a Cease and Desist notice. If I hear you are making any further negative references to me, my company or products I will file a lawsuit against you for defamation.

No you won't.

That threat is almost as lame as threatening another forum member with a gun.

[mickeycrimm]

The more I think about it the funnier it gets. So, Travis, your records indicate that a Mr. RS has not bought any of your products? That's hilarious. But hey, you don't seem that bad of a guy. I'll tell ya what I'll what do. I'll give the heads up on what his initials stand for. His full name is Mr. Rolling Stoned.

[mickeycrimm]

Please consider this a Cease and Desist notice. If I hear you are making any further negative references to me, my company or products I will file a lawsuit against you for defamation.

No you won't.

That threat is almost as lame as threatening another forum member with a gun.

It wasn't a threat V. It was a warning.

[Travis McGee]

CAUTION - OFF TOPIC

Don't take a thing seriously that Travis McGee is writing. Look at the link he provided (trinity method) and you'll see it's a complete scam.

RS, Although you are entitled to your opinion, I do not understand how you can form an opinion and make it public without ever having read my book, seen my videos or spoken to me about my craps betting ideas. What basis do you or any one else have to express negative and disparaging remarks about me, my products and my company? My assumption is that you have no basis whatsoever since my office has informed me you are not a purchaser of any of our products.

Please consider this a Cease and Desist notice. If I hear you are making any further negative references to me, my company or products I will file a lawsuit against you for defamation.

You can sue me to because your system is bunk.

I am not here to advertise or debate the merits of my products. That is off topic. I simply referenced it in response to the topic at hand and the original post. Your post however has no basis whatsoever. I do have RS's legal address so if you will kindly provide me yours in a PM so we can handle this matter offsite.

[kewlJ]

Kewlj, you are the blackjack expert here. Do you think this game was exploitable under the conditions I described? I think RS might be a blackjack player too. So what is you guys opinion here?

I don't consider myself an expert on anything, including blackjack mickey. I count cards....I didn't come up with that or any of the other things I have incorporated into my game and approach. But anyway, if they showed you the shuffle point and you had the ability to raise wagers as you describe, yes it was countable and exploitable. I have seen that game a couple places, I guess about a year ago (maybe longer), but never took a good look. I have not even seen it recently.

But the other console BJ game, the one with a dealer on screen who is a bit less animated (90% female dealers with big boobs), who makes that? That game is much more common in vegas at places like, El Cortez, the D, Circus Circus, and many more. The "big boob" console game doesn't show a shuffle, but the rumor is that the shuffle is when they change dealers. I have never had that confirmed as more than a rumor, but have positive results playing that game. It's a small sample size, so that too is meaningless. I only play at one downtown casinos for 10-15 minutes at a time, while I am waiting for a seat at their double deck BJ game. But I have been playing steady once or twice a week for over a year, probably close to a hundred hours by now and am up enough that I keep throwing a few minutes at it each week.

[Alan Mendelson]

Please consider this a Cease and Desist notice. If I hear you are making any further negative references to me, my company or products I will file a lawsuit against you for defamation.

No you won't.

That threat is almost as lame as threatening another forum member with a gun.

I'd be careful about any threats of violence especially involving a gun or anything lethal. Police and the FBI do not take them lightly. PM me for more information.

[kewlJ]

Mickey and RS, I think you guys are being a little too hard on Travis McGee. I took a quick look at his link to "whatever" crap system and I don't know a thing about craps, so formed no real opinion, other than it was likely all non-sense. However, whether or not his system works is sort of irrelevant, as far as how the bubble crap game works. So his research and inquiries to the manufacturers concerning the mechanics and randomness of the game, should not be dismissed.

The bouncy floor is not determining the number rolled! It's just not! That would not be random and would be highly exploitable. That bouncy floor and roll is just for show. The roll is determined by computer!