Bubble Craps

[Alan Mendelson]

If the roll is determined by computer, how are the dice controlled? Are there strings or magnets? Please be specific with your answer.

[kewlJ]

If the roll is determined by computer, how are the dice controlled? Are there strings or magnets? Please be specific with your answer.

I don't know. I am perfectly comfortable with saying that I don't know. And by the way....this is one of many things in life I don't know and to be honest don't even care that much about. But, I don't need to make thing up and state them as definitive fact as you do.

[OneHitWonder]

If the roll is determined by computer, how are the dice controlled? Are there strings or magnets? Please be specific with your answer.

My best guess is that you aren't supposed to know. They won't sell you the machines to take them apart. Just a guess.

[Alan Mendelson]

If the roll is determined by computer, how are the dice controlled? Are there strings or magnets? Please be specific with your answer.

I don't know. I am perfectly comfortable with saying that I don't know. And by the way....this is one of many things in life I don't know and to be honest don't even care that much about. But, I don't need to make thing up and state them as definitive fact as you do.

I posted a link to an article that explains how it works.

You shoot your mouth off too many times.

[kewlJ]

I posted a link to an article that explains how it works.

You shoot your mouth off too many times.

Alan are you really THIS naïve and gullible, or is everything you do and say here some sort of act?

You posted a link to some craps blog where someone (apparently as gullible as you) is speculating about how the game works.

[coach belly]

Basically, the InterBlock Organic machines get the desired computerized generated numbers based upon players bets and desired Casino hold. The result is rarely random, but instead deterministic.

Does this mean that the results of the dice "rolls" are not random, but are determined by the player bets and the casino hold?

If yes, then can a player fully hedge the e-craps games by betting both lines simultaneously?

How can the casino hold be achieved under those circumstances?

[kewlJ]

Does this mean that the results of the dice "rolls" are not random, but are determined by the player bets and the casino hold?

I this was legal, then those computerized roulette games would just "so called randomly" pick a number that the player(s) just don't happen to be betting on. YIKES!

[AxelWolf]

The bouncy floor is not determining the number rolled! It's just not! That would not be random and would be highly exploitable. That bouncy floor and roll is just for show. The roll is determined by computer!

KJ who said this?

I too want to know how the machine supposedly makes the dice land per the RNG. I'm not buying it. I think there's enough shaking, vibrating and poping that the dice end up being as random as it can get.
The RNG does not tell the dice how to land IMO.

Even if it did, just like in VP, they can't adjust the RNG to determine the desired hold(I believe that's what Travis is claiming about the craps?) they would have to change the payouts.

Agian,
from my understanding, per Nevada Gaming, anything using dice or cards must be random and represent real dice outcomes. If that's the case, it would not make sense, at least here in NV that machine percentages could be adjusted using the RNG, they would have to change the payouts.

[AxelWolf]

Basically, the InterBlock Organic machines get the desired computerized generated numbers based upon players bets and desired Casino hold. The result is rarely random, but instead deterministic.

Does this mean that the results of the dice "rolls" are not random, but are determined by the player bets and the casino hold?

If yes, then can a player fully hedge the e-craps games by betting both lines simultaneously?

How can the casino hold be achieved under those circumstances?

I have already touched on that using roulette as an example. It's a good question, however, most people don't bet that way. If the machine is self-adjusting to get the desired hold would it would have to target individual bettors after they made their bets. I'm fairly certain this would be Illegal cheating by the casino.

[coach belly]

I too want to know how the machine supposedly makes the dice land per the RNG.

Maybe electro-magnets, that the machine can turn on and off so that the predetermined sides face down?

[AxelWolf]

If the roll is determined by computer, how are the dice controlled? Are there strings or magnets? Please be specific with your answer.

I don't know. I am perfectly comfortable with saying that I don't know. And by the way....this is one of many things in life I don't know and to be honest don't even care that much about. But, I don't need to make thing up and state them as definitive fact as you do.

I posted a link to an article that explains how it works.

You shoot your mouth off too many times.

Alan, I'm not arguing with you about how the machines work. IIRC you didn't think they were considered slots in the first place. I don't know, perhaps you just wanted to prove someone wrong as per your "investigation".

I think KJ's post to you using what TM said was jumping the gun.



In the past, I was thinking about linking you to some stuff online(one was about a 150% loss rebate). I just figured you would dispute if it was legitimate or not.

So I'm just curious when you link to articles online whats the determining factor if that article is correct or not?

Do you get to pick and choose if the information is correct or not depending if it hurts or helps your argument?

Personally, I try to find multiple sources(that's not always available), and then I try to determine what sounds reasonable and logical.

[coach belly]

I have already touched on that using roulette as an example.

My understanding is that roulette can not be fully hedged, that there is no combination of bets that are guaranteed to return 100%
for every outcome.

Can e-craps be fully hedged, with a combination of bets that are guaranteed to return 100%?

If yes, can one player make those bets from the same position?

[Alan Mendelson]

There is no mystery as to how the game works. I will get the official answer from either the company or the Technology Department at the NGC. Contrary to the claims of a certain forum members these things are not secrets.

[tableplay]

Alan, do you have any plans to e-mail/call Interblock Luxury Gaming Products (http://www.interblockgaming.com/) to ask them the same question (they also are a major manufacturer of machine craps) ? What if their opinion differs from Aruze Gaming and you never solicited an opinion from them on this matter ? Which companies' opinion gets priority if their opinions differ ? What's for certain is that machine craps (bubble craps) is not a table game since table games require a dealer(s)/stickpersons.

tableplay, many virtual machines do have an algorithm that is not a pure random number generator (RNG). For reference see the Florida State Gaming Commission testimony when considering the interBlock's Organic machines. Expert reports were introduced to the State of Florida that proved these InterBlock Organic machines are not purely random.

Basically, the InterBlock Organic machines get the desired computerized generated numbers based upon players bets and desired Casino hold. The result is rarely random, but instead deterministic. As with most casino machines that are virtual or part virtual, you are playing against a computer that calculates a predetermined slot hold for the casino based upon gaming regulations. There are not as many InterBlock Organic craps machines in Las Vegas (2 white dice) as the rest of the county (with 3 dice) and we only have about 2,000 rolls charted. However, the data indicates that the InterBlock Organic craps are much tighter and produce a better profit for the casino than Aruze. In my experience, The Lucky Dragon is the worst for the consumer compared to MGM and Santa Fe. My best profits on InterBlock Organic craps was at Aria, but they removed theirs shorly after I had a few big wins there using the Trinity Method. Bellagio also took out their InterBlock Organic craps.

So the way to go about things then is to simply go to a crowded (but with one empty seat) communal Interblock station consisting of civilians, sit down in the empty seat, and then bet a smaller, mutually exclusive bet (with respect to what the civilians are betting) and profit. The machine will choose the path of highest Casino EV. Simple example: the aggregate civilian Pass Line Bet is ~$3000, so the non-Civilian bets $2995 (assuming it's below the table max) on the don't side . . .

[AxelWolf]

I too want to know how the machine supposedly makes the dice land per the RNG.

Maybe electro-magnets, that the machine can turn on and off so that the predetermined sides face down?

I agree that could work in theory. I have yet to hear anyone claim that's whats happening. Not even Travis who has supposedly investigated this extensively. Here is what he said....

"An Aruze (a Philipines company BTW) maintenance mechanic verified to me that the big red dice have an RFID chip and showed me the inside of the big red dice. He also showed me the DOS looking program that reads the RFID chip so that they know when to replace die A or die B if it is not getting the wanted results"

Let's pretend they do use magnets, and they do alter the outcomes to achieve the desired HA. Do you think this would be considered cheating?

[AxelWolf]

I have already touched on that using roulette as an example.

Can e-craps be fully hedged, with a combination of bets that are guaranteed to return 100%?

Nope.

[Alan Mendelson]

Just got off the phone with the Technology Department of the NGC.

1. The RNG is called a "mechanical RNG" and while I never heard that before it simply means it controls the bouncing and vibration of the table that propels the dice.

2. There is no computer controlling the dice and the dice are random. There are sensors in the dice that tell the game how the dice land.

3. Yes the game must meet the theoretical 75% return and this is determined both by looking at the available bets and pays but also by monitoring machine performance. If a machine falls out of this 75% return they will examine the machine for any possible problems such as wear on the dice.

As I said all along this game was all about a vibrating and bouncing table platform propelling the dice.

If you don't believe me call the NGC yourself.

[AxelWolf]

. I do have RS's legal address so if you will kindly provide me yours in a PM so we can handle this matter offsite.

Would you be willing to prove this claim to him privately?

If you do have his address, I have to assume you estimated when he may have looked at your website and used his IP to determine his address?

I would NOT want to go to your website knowing you might use it to obtain someone's address, no matter what the reason may be.

I would suggest everyone stay away from your website if that's the case.

[coach belly]

the game must meet the theoretical 75% return

What is the theoretical return on live craps?

[Alan Mendelson]

Axel I questioned whether the game was a slot because I knew slots had to have the 75% theoretical return. The game does indeed have to meet the 75% theo return. See my post above.

At a real craps table no one is monitoring for a 75% return, theoretical or otherwise.