Bubble Craps

[Alan Mendelson]

the game must meet the theoretical 75% return

What is the theoretical return on live craps?

Good question. It will vary from casino to casino depending on the pays for various bets including the hardways, horn and field bets.

In monitoring the mechanical craps game the NGC goes even farther and in addition to the bets and pays it looks at the actual performance.

[coach belly]

the game must meet the theoretical 75% return

What is the theoretical return on live craps?

Good question. It will vary from casino to casino depending on the pays for various bets including the hardways, horn and field bets.

How do they project how many hardways, horn and field bets will be made ?

[tableplay]

The machine will not allow the player to place a pass and don't pass bet at the same time (on factory default settings at least). The player must choose one or the other. So play two stations to accomplish this, or, if the casino restricts this, then "bring a friend". If no friends are available (and the casino restricts you to one station) there are other hedges such as making a buy bet and lay bet on the same number (lay bet at about twice the value of the buy bet if the hedge is done on the 4 or the 10, etc.). Obviously because of the vig these are imperfect hedges but on big point multiplier days (and/or with a high enough players' card level) the vig can be overcome. Also, if you are the only shooter at the station, you will have to place a minimum bet on the don't or pass line to hedge using a buy/lay bet or the machine won't allow you to roll the dice.

Basically, the InterBlock Organic machines get the desired computerized generated numbers based upon players bets and desired Casino hold. The result is rarely random, but instead deterministic.

Does this mean that the results of the dice "rolls" are not random, but are determined by the player bets and the casino hold?

If yes, then can a player fully hedge the e-craps games by betting both lines simultaneously?

How can the casino hold be achieved under those circumstances?

[AxelWolf]

Axel I questioned whether the game was a slot because I knew slots had to have the 75% theoretical return. The game does indeed have to meet the 75% theo return. See my post above.

At a real craps table no one is monitoring for a 75% return, theoretical or otherwise.

I dont remember asking a question just now.

If you knew slots had to have a 75% theoretical return, why did you ask me about that earlier? Seems strange to me.

Can someone link me to where this conversation originally started? I can't seem to find it. page name of thread, please

[coach belly]

So play two stations to accomplish this, or, if the casino restricts this, then "bring a friend".

So if you and a team mate each play at a station, one betting X on pass and one betting X on don't pass,
then the team is guaranteed to lose .X for each outcome...is that correct?

And each player earns the same number of points, which are based on coin-in?

Do players earn more points for riskier bets?

[coach belly]

Can someone link me to where this conversation originally started? I can't seem to find it. page name of thread, please

Thread: How would you play this casino offer?

12-09-2017, 09:15 PM

Under what circumstances would machine craps or roulette be considered a slot machine?

[mickeycrimm]

You can sue me to because your system is bunk.

I am not here to advertise or debate the merits of my products. That is off topic. I simply referenced it in response to the topic at hand and the original post. Your post however has no basis whatsoever. I do have RS's legal address so if you will kindly provide me yours in a PM so we can handle this matter offsite.

Oh, you want my address, eh? Well, you don't seem to be to bad of a guy. I'll tell ya what I'll do. I'll tell ya where I live. I live in BAD CITY. Down on BAD STREET. The farther down the street ya go the BADDER THEY GET. I live in the LAST HOUSE.

[AxelWolf]

Of course kewlj doesn't like me because I won't swallow.

[Alan Mendelson]

To answer coach belly's question: the NGC says they take each individual bet and pay and then add them all up and the average return has to be at least 75%.

In reality not every bet is made on a craps table but thats the method they use.

So they would add up all the center table bets and box numbers and hedge bets and get an average return.

I think that's how the return on Video Poker is also figured.

[Alan Mendelson]

So play two stations to accomplish this, or, if the casino restricts this, then "bring a friend".

So if you and a team mate each play at a station, one betting X on pass and one betting X on don't pass,
then the team is guaranteed to lose .X for each outcome...is that correct?

And each player earns the same number of points, which are based on coin-in?

Do players earn more points for riskier bets?

If you have one player on pass and one player on don't pass the house still has an edge on both bets. In the case of the comeout roll with a 12 the pass loses but the don't pass is a push.

[AxelWolf]

Just got off the phone with the Technology Department of the NGC.

1. The RNG is called a "mechanical RNG" and while I never heard that before it simply means it controls the bouncing and vibration of the table that propels the dice.

2. There is no computer controlling the dice and the dice are random. There are sensors in the dice that tell the game how the dice land.

3. Yes the game must meet the theoretical 75% return and this is determined both by looking at the available bets and pays but also by monitoring machine performance. If a machine falls out of this 75% return they will examine the machine for any possible problems such as wear on the dice.

As I said all along this game was all about a vibrating and bouncing table platform propelling the dice.

If you don't believe me call the NGC yourself.

LOL. I have no idea how you can pat yourself on the back. I don't know anyone resonable who was disputing that in the first place. You made some calls and found out what most of us knew already.

That was not even the main point of all this.

Lets take a look at what else you were claiming.
Alan M

"Slot machines must have a guaranteed minimum return. But there is no guaranteed minimum return in craps.

So for bubble craps to be a slot the game must be rigged.

The same is true for these automated roulette games. Are they slots and if so they must be rigged for a guaranteed minimum return."

[Alan Mendelson]

Actually Axel that was all directed at kewlj.

[redietz]

I don't even understand what the above means. Don't machine games that simulate live games have to follow the percentages of the live games? Like video poker assumes a 52-card non-rigged deck.

[AxelWolf]

Actually Axel that was all directed at kewlj.

Ok, cool. I think in his hast to prove you wrong, he was willing to take the word of one Huckster over another.

[mickeycrimm]

Please consider this a Cease and Desist notice. If I hear you are making any further negative references to me, my company or products I will file a lawsuit against you for defamation.

No you won't.

That threat is almost as lame as threatening another forum member with a gun.

I'd be careful about any threats of violence especially involving a gun or anything lethal. Police and the FBI do not take them lightly. PM me for more information.

It wasn't a threat. It was a warning
He's the one that invited me to a confrontation. I never invited him to go anywhere or do anything.

[AxelWolf]

I don't even understand what the above means. Don't machine games that simulate live games have to follow the percentages of the live games? Like video poker assumes a 52-card non-rigged deck.

From my understanding, per the rules of gaming, you are correct.

Craps has some really bad bets, I can see how one place might have a much higher hold for the casino than another casino.
It would make sense that a local casino has smarter and lower limit bettors taking advantage of free drinks while betting slow.
The hold wouldn't be as good as a place on the strip where people have more money and make significantly worst bets.

I wouldn't suggest anyone believe that some of the local casinos took them out because they were being beaten. I would suggest they were not getting as much action and bad bets as many other location. I (and a few others)know for almost a fact that one of the casinos Travis memtioned didnt take out the machines because the machines were being beat.

[Alan Mendelson]

Actually Axel that was all directed at kewlj.

Ok, cool. I think in his hast to prove you wrong, he was willing to take the word of one Huckster over another.

Kewlj said the dice were controlled by a computer and he said I was wrong about the motion of the table. Then he went into his usual rant that I'm anti AP and a bad journalist. He can apologize anytime he wants to.

All I said was that I questioned whether bubble craps was a slot game. I knew slots had to meet certain conditions and in fact bubble craps meets those conditions.

We can all sing Kumbaya now.

[AxelWolf]

Actually Axel that was all directed at kewlj.

Ok, cool. I think in his hast to prove you wrong, he was willing to take the word of one Huckster over another.

Kewlj said the dice were controlled by a computer and he said I was wrong about the motion of the table. Then he went into his usual rant that I'm anti AP and a bad journalist. He can apologize anytime he wants to.

All I said was that I questioned whether bubble craps was a slot game. I knew slots had to meet certain conditions and in fact bubble craps meets those conditions.

We can all sing Kumbaya now.

I need to go one question at a time.

Why did you ask me about the 75% min payback rule, but then claim you knew about it?

[coach belly]

If you have one player on pass and one player on don't pass the house still has an edge on both bets. In the case of the comeout roll with a 12 the pass loses but the don't pass is a push.

Understood, but if 2 players (playing as a team) are placing opposite bets (one pass & one don't pass),
what is the overall house edge over this team?

Is the entire edge the 12 comeout roll, where the pass loses but the don't pass pushes?

Is there any number or sequence of numbers that could cause both the pass & don't pass to lose?

[Alan Mendelson]

The house edge on competing bets is at least 1% coach. Maybe a fraction smaller.

Only one side of the bet can win and one loses or pushes. In craps there is no mathematical way to beat the house.

I'm sorry to say this but only luck or DI will make you a winner.

Even blackjack beats craps.