Bubble Craps

[Travis McGee]

AxelWolf, you are correct in that they can adjust the "RNG" to determine the desired hold for each particular casino. They do this for most slot machines, including VP on a regular basis, sometimes weekly. At more modern casinos, like Aria they can do it remotely from behind closed doors, whereas older casinos like downtown, Palms or Santa Fe Station you will see them changing the motherboards periodically like on Thursday or Friday morning before the California weekend crowds come

An astute player could never be fooled. They can't change the payback of a video poker without changing the payscale. I personally have never seen video poker payscales change according to the day of the week but maybe someone else has. I've never seen payscale changes from day to day reported on any of the gambling sites.

The Bubble Craps must have payscales on them too so no astute player could be fooled.

mickeycrimm, I am sorry that my post was not more clear. Stated Payback tables on VP and odds payouts on craps are not necessarily the only way to increase the casino hold. That is not what I was referring to. Let's see how the casino increases casino profit without touching payscales or odds on the machine craps:

Player A bets $5 on the Come
Player B bets $5 on the Don't Come
Player C bets $110 inside
Player D is rolling and has $5 on the Pass Line Point of 5 and 2x odds of $10
Player E bets $18 Across
Player F bets $1 each Hardways and $1 Field

Ellis Island Casino:
Roll 1 = 5 (Point Established)
Roll 2 = 2
Roll 3 = 7 out

Red Rock Casino:
Roll 1 = 5 (Point Established)
Roll 2 = 2
Roll 3 = 4
Roll 4 = 5 (Point made)
Roll 5 = 11 Comeout winner
Roll 6 = 8 (Point Established)
Roll 7 = 7 out

Ellis Island had a tighter slot machine or increased hold for the casino than Red Rock without changing the payscales, but simply by adjusting the pseudorandom number generator (PRNG) algorithm (quicker 7 out or whatever to get higher profit).

Furthermore, in effect you are not only playing against the computer but every player sitting around the machine since everyones accumulated bets go into the computer algorithm. Hence, you do not want to be the high roller in most cases.

One day I am sitting on the Bally's bubble craps enjoying a hot run by another shooter but everyone is betting small amounts across or inside except this Come bettor next to me. He kept the roll going because he was making flat $25 Come bets, but every other roll was a crap number giving profit back to the casino. I thought I would be cute and bet $10 every roll on the Horn. Wrong, 7 out after 2 rolls because I had taken away the avenue for the casino to make a profit on a long roll.

Also, once you adjust RNG, it is no longer Random or (RNG) but instead a pseudorandom number generator (PRNG), aka deterministic random bit generator (DRBG). It appears to be random with all the fancy charts but instead includes a sophisticated algorithm that calculates casino profit as it's primary goal.

[regnis]

"I don't win all the time, in fact I lost a net bet the other day this month. But I did go the whole months of October and November without losing a singlecraps bet"

[OneHitWonder]

Also, once you adjust RNG, it is no longer Random or (RNG) but instead a pseudorandom number generator (PRNG), aka deterministic random bit generator (DRBG). It appears to be random with all the fancy charts but instead includes a sophisticated algorithm that calculates casino profit as it's primary goal.

Now why would a casino have to cheat?

[tableplay]

Ellis Island had a tighter slot machine or increased hold for the casino than Red Rock without changing the payscales, but simply by adjusting the pseudorandom number generator (PRNG) algorithm (quicker 7 out or whatever to get higher profit).

Travis, how does the PRNG get the dice to follow its commandments ?

[MisterV]

Yes, what is the mechansim / control system which allows the casino to modify the frequency of dice distributions to make it looser or tighter?

Loaded dice?

I thought those were deemed cheating, at least if a player introduced them into the game.

[Alan Mendelson]

Mister V has raised the key point. Travis what the heck are you talking about?

I explained how the mechanical RNG on the Shoot To Win craps machine only controls the vibrations of the table. The dice are random. Read my earlier post or call the NGC with your conspiracy theory.

[OneHitWonder]

Loaded dice?

It's always something more straightforward or in-your-face.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...128935259.html

[Travis McGee]

It's always something more straightforward or in-your-face.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...128935259.html

From the article, this was also noted as a caveat in our instruction manual long before the above article was published:

The suit specifically cites mistakes when players use the “buy” bet. Certain bets, for example, pay 2 to 1, or a total of $60 on a $20 bet. But the machines have been showing a $58 return, with $2 (amounting to 5 percent of the $40 won) deducted from the player’s electronically logged total, rather than $1. The suit also notes a 7.5 percent commission on certain other bets.

I talked to the Nevada gaming commission about this and was told that since this machine is classified as a slot machine all it has to do is meet the regulation of a minimum 75% return requirements. As long as its meets the 75% standard, Nevada told me that each casino could do whatever they wish with the machine on a daily or hourly basis as far as changing pays. Therefore this lawsuit would not have any legs in Nevada.

This is similar to the singular stand alone animated roulette slot machines spread thoughout Las Vegas with the green wheel at the top (Sam's Town removed theirs). The pays are different by casino and totally legal.

[Travis McGee]

Yes, what is the mechansim / control system which allows the casino to modify the frequency of dice distributions to make it looser or tighter?

Loaded dice?

I thought those were deemed cheating, at least if a player introduced them into the game.

What is the Coca-Cola Company secret syrup formula? That 100 year plus question and yours are similar. The answers are trade secrets. The how is not important. The end result is what is important. Alan, see my previous post.

[MisterV]

The "how" most certainly is important.

The Nevada statute prohibiting cheating applies to both players and casinos.

Loaded dice are deemed to be cheating.

If the dice are loaded, it would appear the casino is guilty of a felony.

So yeah, it's important.

How in the bloody hell can it be considered a slot machine?

Ploppies "know" what a slot is, and they "know" what a craps table is.

Bubble craps certainly appears to be the exact same thing as a real craps game, except the machine bounces and rolls dem bones.

Players expect the payoffs to be the same as at a craps table, as well they should.

Maybe a test case would be in order.

Hello, Bob?

[RS__]

That lawsuit would absolutely "have legs" in NV. It told players it was taking out a 5% comission when it was really taking a larger comission. :face palm:

[Alan Mendelson]

Travis there are no secrets when it comes to gaming devices. The NGC knows everything. Your analogy to Coca Cola is bogus.

The dice inside Shoot To Win are not controlled. They bounce freely as the table vibrates and thrusts.

Stop your nonsense.

[Travis McGee]

Alan, Bravo! Penn and Teller, AP players and the rest of Las Vegas need you, please keep playing like a tourist.

I never said the NGC didn't know everything. They do protect proprietary information and proved it by handing out a 1 million dollar fine to a casino executive trying to steal proprietary slot information. http://www.mercurynews.com/2014/02/1...e-shenanigans/

[AxelWolf]

Still looking for a good explanation of how the machine tells the dice what to land on.

Still looking for someone to explain how this is not considered cheating the players.

It would seem to me NON-random dice outcomes would be a violation of the gaming regulations.

If they are allowed to alter the odds on games like this, why not offer more enticing paytables on E-BJ, keno, VP and other games?

I'm not buying it.

[kewlJ]

It would seem to me NON-random dice outcomes would be a violation of the gaming regulations.

Axel, I gotta laugh at this because there are lots of things the casino industry does that SHOULD be in violation of casino regulations. It is a matter of enforcement and sometimes looking the other way by gaming.

Case in point would be preferential shuffling at blackjack. Gaming has ruled this legal. BUT, if the dealer were to shuffle every time the count went positive (advantage to the player) that would leave the only rounds actually played at negative and neutral counts. This would make for a much higher house advantage than supposed to be, or another way of looking at it....preferential shuffling changed the advantage and/or outcome, which is SUPPOSED to be against regulations.

As a matter of fact, the industry implemented technology to track the cards and notify the dealer when the count was positive, so they could shuffle away, altering the outcomes (in violation). This was the technology known as Mindplay and it became so blatant that Gaming had to act and disallow mindplay, but still left the basis of what was being violated....preferential shuffling.

As a matter of fact, next time, you have reason to be in conversation with Bob (Nersesian), just bring up preferential shuffling. But...Be Warned...have plenty of time available, because he will go off the deep end. Preferential shuffling is one of his major peeves.

[tableplay]

Alan, Bravo! Penn and Teller, AP players and the rest of Las Vegas need you, please keep playing like a tourist.

Travis what's going on with Penn and Teller; are they having show attendance issues ? I've always enjoyed their act and especially the TV show they've got running where magicians try to fool them. Penn's a pretty sharp guy (Teller too but not quite as sharp as Penn).

[tableplay]

It would seem to me NON-random dice outcomes would be a violation of the gaming regulations.

Axel, I gotta laugh at this because there are lots of things the casino industry does that SHOULD be in violation of casino regulations. It is a matter of enforcement and sometimes looking the other way by gaming.

Case in point would be preferential shuffling at blackjack. Gaming has ruled this legal. BUT, if the dealer were to shuffle every time the count went positive (advantage to the player) that would leave the only rounds actually played at negative and neutral counts. This would make for a much higher house advantage than supposed to be, or another way of looking at it....preferential shuffling changed the advantage and/or outcome, which is SUPPOSED to be against regulations.

As a matter of fact, the industry implemented technology to track the cards and notify the dealer when the count was positive, so they could shuffle away, altering the outcomes (in violation). This was the technology known as Mindplay and it became so blatant that Gaming had to act and disallow mindplay, but still left the basis of what was being violated....preferential shuffling.

As a matter of fact, next time, you have reason to be in conversation with Bob (Nersesian), just bring up preferential shuffling. But...Be Warned...have plenty of time available, because he will go off the deep end. Preferential shuffling is one of his major peeves.

While I'm certainly not implying a stance on bubble craps I will say this: If there are less casinos then there is less need for gaming board employees. It is in a gaming board employee's best interest that casino profits remain strong to fund that cushy gaming board employee retirement at age 50 with full salary.

[AxelWolf]

It would seem to me NON-random dice outcomes would be a violation of the gaming regulations.

Axel, I gotta laugh at this because there are lots of things the casino industry does that SHOULD be in violation of casino regulations. It is a matter of enforcement and sometimes looking the other way by gaming.

Case in point would be preferential shuffling at blackjack. Gaming has ruled this legal. BUT, if the dealer were to shuffle every time the count went positive (advantage to the player) that would leave the only rounds actually played at negative and neutral counts. This would make for a much higher house advantage than supposed to be, or another way of looking at it....preferential shuffling changed the advantage and/or outcome, which is SUPPOSED to be against regulations.

As a matter of fact, the industry implemented technology to track the cards and notify the dealer when the count was positive, so they could shuffle away, altering the outcomes (in violation). This was the technology known as Mindplay and it became so blatant that Gaming had to act and disallow mindplay, but still left the basis of what was being violated....preferential shuffling.

As a matter of fact, next time, you have reason to be in conversation with Bob (Nersesian), just bring up preferential shuffling. But...Be Warned...have plenty of time available, because he will go off the deep end. Preferential shuffling is one of his major peeves.

You are not telling me anything new in regards to preferential shuffling. I get what you are saying. No doubt, casinos and game makers have cheated in the past and probably will in the future. In that case, ZK might be correct regarding his chinese prision deck allegations.
You must admit, it's a little different when humans are preferential shuffling as opposed to gaming allowing game manufactures to make illegal games and distribute them all over NV, especially when they have strict testing and regulations when it comes to machines.

[AxelWolf]

Anyone who wants to beat the casinos and doesn't think the bubble craps is using random rolls they should buy Travis McGee's course and hit the casinos immediately. Why anyone would want to sell somthing like this is beyond me.

You might even want to contact Rob Singer and get his VP system.

As I said before, over on WOV Mike took enough interest in that there might be some merit to someone's claims regarding organic roulette avoiding sections of the wheel when it detected people wheel clocking. Normally Mike dismisses that stuff unless theres some legitimate smoke.

[kewlJ]

In that case, ZK might be correct regarding his chinese prision deck allegations.

The Chinese prison card allegations and short changing 10's and aces, is a bit much for me, but I do think ZK has some good points.

One being the recent decision of many casinos to no longer spread the cards when they are introduced into play. Transparency should be paramount to this particular industry. Integrity and the customer feeling he/she is getting a fair shake is of the utmost importance. It is a horrible idea and decision to compromise that in the name of saving a couple minutes. Why do they think those procedures were put in place to begin with? This is another of many decision by new generation MBA types, rather than the real casino guys that used to run things.

Second thing I personally have begun to have a problem with is the newer generation Automatic Shuffle Machines (ASM) not to be confused with CSM's. The newer machines have a small numerical keypad where a code (industry calls it a key) is entered to put the machine in a mode to pre-arrange cards in several different ways. The industry will tell you this is to determine if cards are missing, but several of the sequences are clearly "shady".

I am basing my recent concerns on two things, one extensive conversations with a pit friend who has told me just what these machines are capable of, and second my very unusual results at one specific local casino that utilizes one of these machines. I have witnessed someone from the pit enter a code and boom, I go on an extended losing streak. I know people will say small sample size and all, but I really have a pretty significant sample size and this is the only location that I am in the red in Las Vegas with such a significant sample size.

I actually attempted to get my hands on one of these machines (not only for this but other reasons that you might guess) as there was an individual in Europe that was selling one, but there were some problems with getting it into the U.S., so I abandoned the idea.