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Thread: Tracking multiple BJ tables - Richard Munchkin

  1. #301
    Let's try this: two games are going on. Without being obvious how do you look at the second table when you're supposed to be playing at your own table? Are the dealers and other players waiting for you?

    Care to prove your claim? I'll meet you at any casino of your choosing. I'll bring a witness who happens to be a card counter. You bring your own witness. I promise you anonymity. I've risked going to jail to protect the anonymity of others.

  2. #302
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Let's try this: two games are going on. Without being obvious how do you look at the second table when you're supposed to be playing at your own table? Are the dealers and other players waiting for you?
    Alan, I play 75,000 to 80,000 rounds of blackjack a year. That is more than most professional players, because I am a "grinder" playing mid-level stakes, as opposed to a slash and burn higher stakes player. I am ending my 14th year of professional play. Do the math. That is over a million rounds of blackjack I have played. I DO NOT need to sit there and eyeball every card as it comes out. Nor sit there staring at the dealer waiting my turn to signal.

    Whether I am counting a second table or only the single table that I am playing, I count using a cancelation method. It is a single glance at the table, literally a fraction of a second....are you hearing me Alan, a fraction of a second, and I have a count.

    These are approximations: A blackjack table with 5-7 players averages 45-50 rounds per hour depending on the dealer. That is a round every 72-80 seconds. OVER a minute per round. A table with 3-4 players averages 60-70 rounds per hour. Roughly a round per minute. And 1-2 players can average 100 rounds per hour (or more if heads up). That is a round every 30 second (or less heads up). If there are only 1-2 players at my table, unless the dealer is exceptionally slow, tracking a second table probably is not going to work well. But all other situations, 3 players on up, you are talking a round every minute. Every 60 seconds. It takes me a fraction of a second to pick up the count. There is plenty of time to look around, track a second table, see what the pit folks are doing, watch the game on the TV, notice people milling about me (security conscious).

    Edit: Info removed

    The ONLY time I might miss a card would be at that second table IF while playing my hand, I have to hit 2-3 times, which would take me 2 seconds and someone at that second table hits breaks and the cards are swept up in that 2 second, I may have missed that one card...that break card at the second table. But even in some of those cases, you can sometimes make an educated guess at the break card you did not see. If the player had a 13 and you missed the card but the dealer is sweeping them all up, it probably was a 10. Could have possible been a 9, but 80% chance it was a 10 value card.

    Now I expect you are going to run with, "guessing" and not having an accurate count and all that non-sense. The penalty for missing a card or two or making that kind of educated guess is very small. It is the same as less penetration (more unseen cards). I don't expect you will understand this, but it is 100% true. If you are still on speaking terms with your friend Shackleford (or any other math guy) ask them. I am not going to keep fighting with you just because you don't understand a mathematically proven concept.

    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Care to prove your claim? I'll meet you at any casino of your choosing. I'll bring a witness who happens to be a card counter. You bring your own witness. I promise you anonymity. I've risked going to jail to protect the anonymity of others.
    I think you know that I am not interested in this.

    And now, I am going to bed. Good night.
    Last edited by kewlJ; 12-19-2017 at 01:57 PM. Reason: identifying info removed

  3. #303
    I'm sorry. I didn't realize you didn't have to "eyeball every card as it comes out." I will add psychic powers to your other abilities that include xray vision.

    I'm done. You win. I will NEVER question you again.

  4. #304
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    I'm sorry. I didn't realize you didn't have to "eyeball every card as it comes out." I will add psychic powers to your other abilities that include xray vision.

    I'm done. You win. I will NEVER question you again.
    You didn't realize it because you didn't want to realize or understand it. I have said that I use a cancelation method that takes me a fraction of a second to pick up a count, I am guessing about 10 times now. I have also said this isn't even something you learn or practice. It is just something that happens with experience.

    Alan hasn't heard this because he hasn't wanted to hear this. So I am going to throw it open to others. Is there anyone else who has or hasn't heard me say this multiple times? Because I feel like I am talking to a door here with Mr. Mendelson.

    And BTW Alan, these things that I am telling you are not unusual for an experienced player. I am nothing special. Most player of my experience do what I do and more (and some have said so). So please don't give us that psychic powers or xray vision shit. This is just a case of you not knowing, so you are talking and making assumptions about something you have no idea about. And that really is not very good journalism.
    Last edited by kewlJ; 12-19-2017 at 01:24 AM.

  5. #305
    Alan is of the position that counting two tables is impossible to do, and....if you look at then jump to the other table you will get made by the pit boss. Alan, could you explain to us how you can get made by the pit boss for doing something that is supposed to be impossible to do? Explain it to us like we're third graders.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  6. #306
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    I never attacked Munchkin.

    But kewlj you have been constantly attacking me as you mention the 18 yos constantly. This is nothing less than a swipe at my credibility because you know people in this forum and the WOV don't believe.

    Frankly I don't care if they don't believe me. Its not going to affect my life or my livelihood.

    You kewlj have made a claim and then you backtracked. Sure I suppose in rare conditions where tables are close together and there are no obstructions you can count two tables. Early in this discussion I said there was a card club in Compton where the tables are bunched together and you probably could do this.

    But you specifically said casinos on the west side of the Strip and I've been to four of them and they're too far apart and without xray vision you can't see thru the players.

    Yes I will agree that you just might be able to count two tables in Compton. But you're not at the Mirage or Caesars or Bellagio or NYNY or Red Rock or Flamingo or Tropicana where I also posted pictures. Why? It's the placement of the tables and your middle seats just don't give the unobstructed view you think you have.

    Axel I am sure you're going to find casino reps who will say there are counters who can count two tables. I wonder if they'll also say that they watch for them and they arrange their tables so it isn't easy to do?

    I'll answer the question Axel: of course anyone who says counting two tables is possible is also going to have counter measures in place. So bring on your casino experts because I would love to hear them say they leave their tables close together even when they know it goes on.

    That will be the biggest laugh.
    The biggest laugh is the fact that you think the casinos are willing to put LESS tables in their pit or take away valubale floor space just because a few guys are sucsessfully counting 2 tables. There are some simple ways to cut out a majority of the AP oppertunities (At least they seem simple to me in many cases). The casinos are not willing to risk loseing -EV players and or get out less rounds for themselves.

  7. #307
    Originally Posted by MisterV View Post
    He's proven it.

    Nice post there, KJ: sums it all up rather nicely.
    Thank you MrV. I assume you are referring to post #295. I think I will let that post be my final comment on the subject, as it should be clear to anyone with an ounce of objectivity what is going on here. Your conclusion (you have an ounce of objectivity) confirms that for me, so again thank you.

    For the record, I did have to edit out some sensitive and identifying information from two of my posts from last night, but this 'summary post' (#295) remains unchanged except for a spelling edit.

  8. #308
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    There's only one claim here kewlj. You claimed you can count two tables. Then you backtracked to say if conditions were right.

    Prove what you claim.

    If there are only two players at the second table of what value is your count?
    Alan, by posting this question you prove that you know absolutely nothing about card counting. There is really no way for you to rewind this or squirm around it.

    kJ has cited some of the world’s top players, who support his position. You need to let this go.

  9. #309
    Originally Posted by Dankyone View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    There's only one claim here kewlj. You claimed you can count two tables. Then you backtracked to say if conditions were right.

    Prove what you claim.

    If there are only two players at the second table of what value is your count?
    Alan, by posting this question you prove that you know absolutely nothing about card counting. There is really no way for you to rewind this or squirm around it.

    kJ has cited some of the world’s top players, who support his position. You need to let this go.
    But he`s really great at squirming

  10. #310
    Some final notes. I checked Paris, the Flamingo, and Harrah's tables. The Paris and Flamingo tables were roughly the same distances as Boyd and Palace Station, and I had no trouble seeing cards at the next table from the middle seat as long as the seat or two between weren't occupied. At Harrah's, the tables were 15-20 inches further, which actually made a difference, believe it or not. My sub 20/20 eyes could discern pips from paint on the far end of the adjacent table, of course, but I had a hard time actually identifying the particular cards. So for identifying specific cards, that appeared to be my limit. I do not know if lighting played a part, as I did not have a light measuring device with me.

    What my brief survey suggested was that identifying specific cards could be done at many properties. Identifying specific cards was difficult at a particular distance for me. That distance was about 135 inches from middle seat to the center of the adjacent table. The cards beyond that midpoint were pips and paint to me. If two specific seats were occupied, there was an obstruction issue.

    I haven't played blackjack in 30 years, so these are all just complete novice observations. For those who want to argue that it can't be done based on the blooming buzzing confusion of people moving and obstructions, or because tracking another table would be un-subtle, I don't know enough to have any opinion. For those who think the mental math or visual acuity makes it impossible, well, I do not agree with that. Any partial count, from what I understand, can be a benefit. And my eyes are pretty bad, so younger eyes can probably see the cards well enough.

  11. #311
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    Some final notes. I checked Paris, the Flamingo, and Harrah's tables. The Paris and Flamingo tables were roughly the same distances as Boyd and Palace Station, and I had no trouble seeing cards at the next table from the middle seat as long as the seat or two between weren't occupied. At Harrah's, the tables were 15-20 inches further, which actually made a difference, believe it or not. My sub 20/20 eyes could discern pips from paint on the far end of the adjacent table, of course, but I had a hard time actually identifying the particular cards. So for identifying specific cards, that appeared to be my limit. I do not know if lighting played a part, as I did not have a light measuring device with me.

    What my brief survey suggested was that identifying specific cards could be done at many properties. Identifying specific cards was difficult at a particular distance for me. That distance was about 135 inches from middle seat to the center of the adjacent table. The cards beyond that midpoint were pips and paint to me. If two specific seats were occupied, there was an obstruction issue.

    I haven't played blackjack in 30 years, so these are all just complete novice observations. For those who want to argue that it can't be done based on the blooming buzzing confusion of people moving and obstructions, or because tracking another table would be un-subtle, I don't know enough to have any opinion. For those who think the mental math or visual acuity makes it impossible, well, I do not agree with that. Any partial count, from what I understand, can be a benefit. And my eyes are pretty bad, so younger eyes can probably see the cards well enough.
    Thank you for taking the time and effort to give us an honest assessment redietz. Won't matter. Just the same as expert opinions from some of the top blackjack players who have been employing this technique since....well before I was born didn't matter in the slightest. Sadly, we are into twilight zone territory here where facts and reality don't matter.

  12. #312
    I agree with how regnis understand the "theory" and also how Alan deciphers kew's words of wisdom about being less reliable. I also put no credibility whatsoever into any BS a hack like "Richard Munchkin" and his gimpy voice spews on an overly biased marketing show like GWAE.

    Here's the real "theory"....and Moses, who seems to actually play instead of pontificating from his armchair, touched on this: counting cards for a gambling "advantage" is really an "on the edge" kind of exercise. You want every accuracy you can possibly get your hands on, and with all the countermeasures casinos have in-place against counters, accuracy means more than a lot.

    So, just because some little twit "I'm a be pro" like kew, who lives his entire life on internet forums as an anonymous fool, comes on and proclaims obvious BS like counting two tables and making money for 15 years, it means very little to nothing in the world of common sense. There's a reason kew keeps resorting to these other loud-mouthed "AP's" as his "proof" that his ridiculous claims are true, rather than having the courage and the fortitude to meet up with Alan at any casino to actually prove his baloney. Both Alan and I have been to casinos and tried this silly feat WITH NO PLAYERS AT EITHER TABLE and I even had a casino exec prove to me that his claim is bogus, while on kew's side we have cross-eyed redietz and his set of incomparable hawkeyes. What does that tell you?

  13. #313
    Rob the insults aren't necessary so stop.

    The point is this. Kewlj is confirming what we've known all along. Any count missing cards is less reliable. It doesn't matter if at one table or two. And with a small edge to begin with, a less reliable count further depletes the edge.

    It is now over. If kewlj can win that way, then more power to him. But anyone reading this now knows that that it's not as easy as anyone might think.

    Kewlj doesn't have to show me anything. It's all been said right here.

  14. #314
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Rob the insults aren't necessary so stop.

    The point is this. Kewlj is confirming what we've known all along. Any count missing cards is less reliable. It doesn't matter if at one table or two. And with a small edge to begin with, a less reliable count further depletes the edge.

    It is now over. If kewlj can win that way, then more power to him. But anyone reading this now knows that that it's not as easy as anyone might think.

    Kewlj doesn't have to show me anything. It's all been said right here.
    He'll just come back with "you're a shyster Alan, who is picking on me once again with your underhanded ways". waaa...waaa....

  15. #315
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    I agree with how regnis understand the "theory" and also how Alan deciphers kew's words of wisdom about being less reliable. I also put no credibility whatsoever into any BS a hack like "Richard Munchkin" and his gimpy voice spews on an overly biased marketing show like GWAE.

    Here's the real "theory"....and Moses, who seems to actually play instead of pontificating from his armchair, touched on this: counting cards for a gambling "advantage" is really an "on the edge" kind of exercise. You want every accuracy you can possibly get your hands on, and with all the countermeasures casinos have in-place against counters, accuracy means more than a lot.

    So, just because some little twit "I'm a be pro" like kew, who lives his entire life on internet forums as an anonymous fool, comes on and proclaims obvious BS like counting two tables and making money for 15 years, it means very little to nothing in the world of common sense. There's a reason kew keeps resorting to these other loud-mouthed "AP's" as his "proof" that his ridiculous claims are true, rather than having the courage and the fortitude to meet up with Alan at any casino to actually prove his baloney. Both Alan and I have been to casinos and tried this silly feat WITH NO PLAYERS AT EITHER TABLE and I even had a casino exec prove to me that his claim is bogus, while on kew's side we have cross-eyed redietz and his set of incomparable hawkeyes. What does that tell you?

    Anybody can do it. Don't take my word for it. Go ahead and test it yourself. You might also measure the actual distances with a tape measure, as I did, and then go to an optometrist and ask if one can discern paint from pips at those distances. Just go to various tables in different casinos late at night, lay a card one table over, then plop into a seat and take a gander.

    "And I even had a casino exec prove to me that his claim is bogus" from Argentino is the usual nonsense. No name, no details, no evidence. How exactly did he prove it, my good man? Take your time. Let me guess, the "casino exec" is a Vice President J. Quincy Magoo, over at the Tangiers.

    I've said this before -- I don't know if kewlJ is a short order cook, a blackjack player, or an assistant to Heidi Fleiss. But the fact is, you can identify cards one table over at a majority of casinos.

  16. #316
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Here's the real "theory"....and Moses, who seems to actually play instead of pontificating from his armchair, touched on this: counting cards for a gambling "advantage" is really an "on the edge" kind of exercise. You want every accuracy you can possibly get your hands on, and with all the countermeasures casinos have in-place against counters, accuracy means more than a lot.
    To me it's almost like everything else you do in life. College, buy a house, pick a wife, buy a car, get a job, invest in the stock market. The more research you do the less risk you take on.

    The tricky part is that in blackjack you get fired for being too good.

    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    I've said this before -- I don't know if kewlJ is a short order cook, a blackjack player, or an assistant to Heidi Fleiss. .
    Wait! KJ can cook?

    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    But the fact is, you can identify cards one table over at a majority of casinos.
    Hmmm. They used to be called binoculars. lol
    Last edited by Moses; 11-27-2018 at 05:24 PM.

  17. #317
    It's funny how in Singer's eyes, everyone that is a legit player is a fraud, phony or hack. He must tear down any and all legitimate players, to build up the hype that is the rob Singer alternative reality fantasy. Only the great Rob Singer with his alternative math and fantasy tales can win money at the casinos. lol

    I don't know details of Munchkin's AP play. He keeps details pretty close to the vest. But I do know he has been working/teaming with one of the best, most successful table game AP's playing today for several years now. I am quite sure he is very successful and not a hack. But Singer has to attempt to tear everyone else down, to build up his own alternative nonsense.
    Last edited by kewlJ; 11-27-2018 at 05:28 PM.

  18. #318
    The problem is, kew, that you are no more a "legit player" than any of the other anonymous hacks on here. We know Alan and I are. And the reason you refuse to identify yourself and/or meet any of your critics in a casino to prove yourself is simple: you're afraid of being exposed for the armchair theory-pushing gambler that you, like the majority of the foreigners, minorities and weirdos on WoV, really are. Most of you are afraid of your own shadows.

    Redietz, I already tested your nonsensical theory out at the Peppermill with a casino exec and no people anywhere around. With cards on the next table on either side and with me or the exec sitting in any seat, it is impossible to make out even 10% of the cards with a 5-second uninterrupted glance....with NO PEOPLE anywhere. And if you know the Pep, some tables are closer than many casinos.

    Your claim of being able to realistically see cards at many casinos is also bogus. You tried it at one.

  19. #319
    First of all I am not a player in anyone's class here including Rob or kewlj or even AxelWolf. I never played the stakes these guys play.

    Now when it comes to seeing the cards on a second table: of course you'll be able to differentiate paint from pips. You can probably do that from thirty feet away even with cataracts.

    But the issue of counting two tables is not as simple as line of sight. Here are the obstacles:

    1. Dealers dealing so there is time to see both tables.
    2. Other players obstructing the view.
    3. Angle of the table permitting or blocking the view.
    4. The lip of the table which can obstruct the view.
    5. Your height and the angle of view you have.
    6. Not being obvious.

    My fuzzy, out of focus photos which were not deliberately taken that way, showed the problems with points 3, 4 and 5.

    Redietz said he stood at a table for his experiment. Next time take a seat then tell us how many cards you miss.

  20. #320
    Incorrect. This projection thing is wicked right. YOU tried it at one. LOL.

    I've been checking this every trip since the debate, and I tried it at three places the initial trip. In fact, my carry-on got searched because of a metal tape measure I take with me, and that was my second or third excursion.

    You haven't even looked in Las Vegas, have you? You are proclaiming that I'm lying about Las Vegas tables, and kewlJ is lying about Las Vegas tables...and YOU HAVEN'T EVEN CHECKED ANY LAS VEGAS TABLES!

    Do you see how ridiculous that is? You are trying to debunk a Las Vegas blackjack player by checking one table in Reno. What the hell? That doesn't even make sense. And you call me, who has been toting a tape measure with me the entire time, and actually posted the measurements here, a liar, when you haven't even been to Las Vegas!

    So what were the distances at your Peppermill table? Did you measure them? Were they representative of all tables in the area? Go ahead, post the inches between tables here, as I did. Tick tock.

    Why is it you think sitting at one table in Reno debunks kewlJ, who is in Las Vegas? What kind of engineer would draw that conclusion?


    Tell you what -- let's have a blackjack table measuring excursion while I'm in LV in a couple of weeks. You and me. We'll walk the strip and measure some tables, and see if we can identify pips from paint. That should settle it, eh? Invite Mr. Mendelson. He can tote the tape measure, and then we can look up a couple of optometrists.

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