Tracking multiple BJ tables - Richard Munchkin

[kewlJ]

The photos were not taken from an end seat.

That is a lie Alan! That photo of yours that I reposted yesterday is taken from first base. You were standing directly behind the first seat. There is no other possible way that the seat in the forefront, which is 3rd base at the next table, can be in the forefront and middle of the picture UNLESS the photo is taken from first base (or standing just behind it). It's just impossible. (18 y.o.'s in a row type impossible)

I've been asking other forum members to look for themselves. Have none of you been in a casino since this discussion started?

Alan there is a very small membership here and only a couple even play blackjack and most of the members don't care bout this discussion. I wish a few more had spoken up, but they haven't. A couple people, like RS have said that they have tracked a second table, while playing one and you completely dismissed and ignored them. And now a publicly know professional blackjack player and AP (not much blackjack these days) Richard Munchkin has confirmed that he did it regularly AND That many professional blackjack players have been doing this for 40 years! And Munchkin qualifies as a bit of a blackjack historian because he interviewed a number of well know professional players for his book. What more do you want? There is apparently nothing that will satisfy you!

You've admitted the information you can gather at a second table is limited. That tells me you can't have an accurate count.

This is clear evidence that you have no idea what you are talking about. This statement that you have repeated over and over is just NOT true. Numerous blackjack players and math guys have tried to explain it to you, but you either don't listen, don't understand or just aren't willing to accept the truth.

Anyone can go to the casinos you mentioned on the West side of the Strip and see for themselves that the tables are too far apart. Then they can observe for themselves when the dealers deal -- and they would have to be in sync for you to accomplish what you claim.

You are repeating and we have covered this. I too wish a few people would have weighed in, including looking for themselves and even taking their own pictures. But they haven't. This a is a small site with a handful of members and most don't care and have tired of this discussion. But you deceitfully try to paint that as no one backing me up. NO ONE has backed you up either. (although you conveniently leave that out).

Frankly you just can't deal with someone saying the emperor has no clothes.

Don't be goofy. I'll see your "emporer with no cloths" and raise you a "There is no one so blind as he who will not see".

I don't fall for your bullshit.

No you don't "fall for" nor are interested in the truth. You predetermined an opinion and refuse to acknowledge all evidence that doesn't support your 'alternative reality'.

And regarding the package, Tony told me what was there. I didn't have to see it. Redietz wouldn't post it, so you expected me to post it? No. If it's so important let redietz post it or let him send it to you so you can post it.

I am not even going to rehash the package again. It all there. Everyone knows how you deceitfully tap danced and played games. Should we take a poll and ask the small membership here if you were honest with redietz? (and the rest of us for that matter). It would be the same results as the 18 y.o.'s poll all over again.

Now grow up.

Back at ya. Be honest for once.

[kewlJ]

You want to prove me wrong?

I HAVE proven you wrong Alan. You are either too ignorant to realize it or refuse to accept it. And there is really not much I can do about either of those possibilities is there?

[Alan Mendelson]

You lie. I was sitting at an empty table. And not in the first seat. In fact all of the tables were empty at 3 in the morning. Your problem kewlj is that you will not accept the distance between the tables or their positioning. Take your own photos and post them.

I'll say it again: take your own photos and post them.

And frankly I'd like Mr Munchkin to demonstrate this super power.

I don't believe it. Now prove me wrong.

[kewlJ]

And frankly I'd like Mr Munchkin to demonstrate this super power.

I don't believe it. Now prove me wrong.

In addition, I went to the trouble to post a thread on a blackjack site, Blackjack info, asking if any of the members tracked a second table while playing one. I am not going to post links to another site, but feel free to check it out. There were 4 yes responses, some of which may be familiar to anyone familiar with the blackjack community, 21forme, Don Schlesinger, and Gronbog are pretty well known players who post on multiple forums. Don Schlesinger, pretty well know player and author, stated that he has been playing one table and tracking a second table for 40 years!

After I posted that thread, a second similar thread was started at a second blackjack site (not by me), Blackjack the forum, where a half dozen current players confirmed that they track a second table. Norm Wattenberger, who sells the top blackjack simulation software programs confirmed that there is a feature on his software product Casino Verite, to practice this technique.

What this all comes down to is Alan simply isn't familiar with this technique, because he is not a serious blackjack player. But Serious and professional players have tracked a second table for 40 years. It is nothing new or unusual. It certainly is not something I am claiming any kind of credit for.

And one more things Alan's fellow AP hater, OneHit, did that search about tracking a second table and posted a couple links, one being a post on another site a couple years ago, where I was talking about this technique and relayed a story from earlier in my career, playing Atlantic City, where one of the older casinos, either Sands (which is no more) or Resorts had mirrored fairly low ceilings. I was able to look up at the ceiling and track the cards at the table directly opposite (across the pit) by focusing on pips and paint.

Of course, OneHit, decided that was impossible and ridiculed me for it. But in one of those threads on another site, a long time experienced player talks about when he was "spotting" for one of the big teams (I believe Tommy Hyland's Team), he was positioned up on the second floor looking down at the tables tracking numerous tables at a time. This is just a case of people here, not knowing what is possible. Pips and paint makes things that seem unlikely very possible.

Edit: Oh and I almost forget the reason, I quoted these remarks from Alan. Alan or anyone else thinking that Munchkin, me or any other player is going to demonstrate this technique, shows how clueless he is. Just a complete lack of understanding of AP's and the AP mindset.

[MisterV]

What does playing at one table and observing another at the same time have to do with AP?

Can't play two tables at once, can you?

AP means you have a quantifiable ADVANTAGE against the casino in the game you are playing at the time: nothing more.

That is the relevant area of inquiry,dissecting these games to bare bones, deconstructing them and seeking an advantage: not trying to prove how many angels can fit on the head of a pin, or whether a counter can count two tables at once.

As they say: "Show me the money."

[kewlJ]

What does playing at one table and observing another at the same time have to do with AP?

Can't play two tables at once, can you?

AP means you have a quantifiable ADVANTAGE against the casino in the game you are playing at the time: nothing more.

Really? Is this a serious question or are you being....well....MrV.

I have explained this before but am happy to again (giving you the benefit of doubt above).

Short answer is you immediately jump to the better opportunity, meaning bigger advantage or variation of that....more rounds to be played before shuffle at an advantage.

The longer answer is...say you are playing only one table (known as play all). For easy math lets say 100 rounds per hour. I am going to approximate some numbers here, but on average you are going to see and play, lets say 25 positive count rounds and 75 neutral and negative count rounds. And of those 25 positive count rounds, maybe 8 will be significantly positive to the point that you wager your max bet. Ok?

Now if you are tracking a second table and jump to a better count or opportunity, you still are playing the same 100 rounds per hour, but the breakdown changes. You are replacing some of those negative counts that you would have been playing at the first table with better counts and situations that you are now playing at the second table.

So now out of that same 100 rounds played maybe you play 40 positive counts, 13 which are significantly positive or max bet opportunities, AND you are playing less of those negative/neutral counts, 60 now, compared to 75 only playing one table. In effect you are changing the true count frequencies. AND that is a big deal. Can increase your win rate by up to 50%. It would be up to 100% if you could play ALL the really good counts, but the problem is that sometimes there are good counts at both tables and you can't play both. Um..That's a good problem to have though.

[kewlJ]

Another way to put it is that it is kind of a variation of the team call-in approach (like the MIT teams), where there is a spotter, who tracks tables looking for an advantageous situation and then calls in the "big player". In this case the player tracking a second table is playing both roles.

[OneHitWonder]

Does the lack of periods in the username confuse you? I'm so sorry. Rob Singer had exactly the same issue.

Either you did use your real (full) name as a username here, or you didn't. You didn't. Strange as hell for someone trying as hard as you to appear above board. At least Shacky doesn't have to constantly compare himself to Singer, and threaten law suits, to pass himself off.

[OneHitWonder]

Of course, OneHit, decided that was impossible and ridiculed me for it. But in one of those threads on another site, a long time experienced player talks about when he was "spotting" for one of the big teams (I believe Tommy Hyland's Team), he was positioned up on the second floor looking down at the tables tracking numerous tables at a time. This is just a case of people here, not knowing what is possible. Pips and paint makes things that seem unlikely very possible.

Either you did or didn't tell us about the mirrors. You didn't. Why was that? Even you don't believe you.

Why do none of the AP's quote the other guy where it's important? And never provide links?

[Alan Mendelson]

Let's sum it up kewlj. You sent me to any casino on the west side of the Strip. I went to four casinos. I took the first picture at the first one I visited. Here's what I founf:

1. The tables are not close to each other.
2. There can easily be all sorts of obstacles in seeing the cards at another table including bodies of other players
3. The tables have lips which mean you need to be at a higher angle to view cards

At this point you admit your counting ability can be limited. So let me ask you: is a 50% count as good as the 100% count you get at your own table. Do you play with half a deck?

Now let's find out about your technique. Do you stand and literally stand out like a sore thumb when you are looking at the second table? Wouldn't it be obvious that something is out of the ordinary when you're always looking at the other table?

And what about your own table and your own game? Are you raising eyebrows by causing delays?

And let's say by some miracle none of these are issues for you? What if the dealers are not in sync? Can you still count two tables?

Look I'm sure there's a way to see cards on more than one table but does it do you any good?

I know people who are experts at knibbling. It does them no good.

[redietz]

Does the lack of periods in the username confuse you? I'm so sorry. Rob Singer had exactly the same issue.

Either you did use your real (full) name as a username here, or you didn't. You didn't. Strange as hell for someone trying as hard as you to appear above board. At least Shacky doesn't have to constantly compare himself to Singer, and threaten law suits, to pass himself off.

Right -- the anonymous dude who doesn't know what he's talking about is bothered by a lack of periods in the redietz handle because a lack of periods suggests not being aboveboard. As opposed to, I guess, an anonymous handle like OneHitWonder, which suggests what?

That you can't follow or abide by your own logic? That you're a hypocrite? That you're somewhere many fathoms below aboveboard?

I'm still trying to understand the twisted logic. According to an anonymous poster, who says being non-anonymous is a sign of being aboveboard, I was trolling for clients under the handle "redietz" to confuse people so they wouldn't associate me with Bob Dietz's Integrity Sports. Maybe I was shooting for dumber clients, or trying to double bill the same clients by using the clever pseudonym where I drop the periods.

OneHit, you have mental issues. Read what you wrote. Then figure out exactly what your theory is regarding me, go through my 3000 posts and find a couple that support it. Then post under your actual name so we know you're aboveboard and report back.

[OneHitWonder]

1. The tables are not close to each other.
2. There can easily be all sorts of obstacles in seeing the cards at another table including bodies of other players
3. The tables have lips which mean you need to be at a higher angle to view cards

The dealers are almost always dealing in an active shoe. The only time to look a while somewhere else is when the shoe is being switched out, which doesn't amount to counting another table, because players get markers to play other things, and then come back. Each player's turn to act comes rather erratically, as players have different options each time. The better counting positions sit later at the table. So, full tables give the best chance of looking away during play. And for cards not racked every hand. But then, how to move back and forth between tables, as full tables don't unsually happen at only one table. And, how to count cards when moving between tables? How many played hands are missed in going from one table to another? What a mess.

Kewlj, when exactly you do look at the other table while your dealer is dealing? How often is the other table shuffling up then? How often is yours and the other table full? What if someone sits where you want to go after you are on your way to the other table? How often are you left with no table to come back to? And so on, please fill in the details.


P.S. Why not just stop playing at the table you are at until there's a good count? And find a better count. It amounts to the same thing, but isn't nearly so obvious, as obvious as that is.

[OneHitWonder]

Does the lack of periods in the username confuse you? I'm so sorry. Rob Singer had exactly the same issue.

Either you did use your real (full) name as a username here, or you didn't. You didn't. Strange as hell for someone trying as hard as you to appear above board. At least Shacky doesn't have to constantly compare himself to Singer, and threaten law suits, to pass himself off.

Right -- the anonymous dude who doesn't know what he's talking about is bothered by a lack of periods in the redietz handle because a lack of periods suggests not being aboveboard. As opposed to, I guess, an anonymous handle like OneHitWonder, which suggests what?

That you can't follow or abide by your own logic? That you're a hypocrite? That you're somewhere many fathoms below aboveboard?

I'm still trying to understand the twisted logic. According to an anonymous poster, who says being non-anonymous is a sign of being aboveboard, I was trolling for clients under the handle "redietz" to confuse people so they wouldn't associate me with Bob Dietz's Integrity Sports. Maybe I was shooting for dumber clients, or trying to double bill the same clients by using the clever pseudonym where I drop the periods.

OneHit, you have mental issues. Read what you wrote. Then figure out exactly what your theory is regarding me, go through my 3000 posts and find a couple that support it. Then post under your actual name so we know you're aboveboard and report back.

I think that you've learned the "fine art" of bullshit from years of explaining away bad predictions.

Tell Dan you want to change your username here to your real name, or just open up a new account here. That has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with you. Or go on another three thousand posts into nowhere. Oops, 4000.

[redietz]

Either you did use your real (full) name as a username here, or you didn't. You didn't. Strange as hell for someone trying as hard as you to appear above board. At least Shacky doesn't have to constantly compare himself to Singer, and threaten law suits, to pass himself off.

Right -- the anonymous dude who doesn't know what he's talking about is bothered by a lack of periods in the redietz handle because a lack of periods suggests not being aboveboard. As opposed to, I guess, an anonymous handle like OneHitWonder, which suggests what?

That you can't follow or abide by your own logic? That you're a hypocrite? That you're somewhere many fathoms below aboveboard?

I'm still trying to understand the twisted logic. According to an anonymous poster, who says being non-anonymous is a sign of being aboveboard, I was trolling for clients under the handle "redietz" to confuse people so they wouldn't associate me with Bob Dietz's Integrity Sports. Maybe I was shooting for dumber clients, or trying to double bill the same clients by using the clever pseudonym where I drop the periods.

OneHit, you have mental issues. Read what you wrote. Then figure out exactly what your theory is regarding me, go through my 3000 posts and find a couple that support it. Then post under your actual name so we know you're aboveboard and report back.

I think that you've learned the "fine art" of bullshit from years of explaining away bad predictions.

Tell Dan you want to change your username here to your real name, or just open up a new account here. That has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with you. Or go on another three thousand posts into nowhere. Oops, 4000.

You don't even know what the McCusker Report is, do you? I was publicly tracked for decades, both via the McCusker Report and the Wise Guys Contest. plus I have dated/timed emails going back at least 10 years with all plays. The McCusker Report was titled, "Tipsters or Gypsters?" and included subjective summaries of handicappers' business practices and personal histories besides their actual multi-year records. Excerpts from various "Tipsters or Gypsters?" were in the infamous "package" sent to Mr. Mendelson.

But good try, OneHit.

And I'm sure the National Conference on Gambling and Risk Taking routinely allows scamdicappers to present academic papers. It's done all the time.

[OneHitWonder]

You don't even know what the McCusker Report is, do you? I was publicly tracked for decades, both via the McCusker Report and the Wise Guys Contest. plus I have dated/timed emails going back at least 10 years with all plays. The McCusker Report was titled, "Tipsters or Gypsters?" and included subjective summaries of handicappers' business practices and personal histories besides their actual multi-year records. Excerpts from various "Tipsters or Gypsters?" were in the infamous "package" sent to Mr. Mendelson.

But good try, OneHit.

And I'm sure the National Conference on Gambling and Risk Taking routinely allows scamdicappers to present academic papers. It's done all the time.

I'm... I'm... I'm... I'm.... blah, blah, blah. People who can beat the system, whichever, don't run around telling everyone about it. Go play your own picks if so good, and certainly don't sell or give a single one of them away. But, I suspect, without some sort of (illegal) insider information, your picks will be as useless as the rest. Forty years down the drain? Maybe, I should email your brother-in-law to get his take on it?


P.S. Pretty good for some moron, eh? Asshole.

[OneHitWonder]

Damn, y'all should quit arguing about who the hell knows what. Alan, Belly, and that other retard whom's name I can't remember aren't going to change their mind. You can't fix stupid, as the legend goes. If anything should be done, in my opinion of course, is you should petition Dan to have the retards removed and/or block them and don't read/respond (to) their posts.

Just ship over one of those millions from the casinos to Dan, and buy the forum. How hard can that be?

The Greater Fool theory in action.

[coach belly]

You do realize the "betting window" on Georgia to win the SEC and national title never actually closed, right? The odds changed, but the alleged window never closed.

When you announced on this forum that you had action on UGA at +900 for SEC & 45-1 for NCAA
had the opportunity for these bets closed, or could you still get UGA at +900 on the day of the championship game?

It would be unethical to tell people what we did unless (drum roll please) we'd already done it.

I don't understand your question, but the question I raised was...is it unethical to give your recommendations to strangers for free,
while simultaneously selling the same to clients?

You had written earlier that your clients would be unhappy if they were to find out that you had done that.

[kewlJ]

Either you did or didn't tell us about the mirrors. You didn't. Why was that? Even you don't believe you.

What? I related the mirror episode on another site because we were talking about Atlantic city where it happened. Why haven't I told that story here....is that what you are asking? Well I haven't told the story of my dog dying when I was 12 years old here either. Am I suppose to relate every incident that occurred throughout my life or card counting career, at every site I am on?

I talk about things when the topic comes up and it is relatable. If you want to know every experience that I have had in my 14 year card counting career, OneHit, you will have to wait for the book (if that project ever gets back on track as I am not in good favor with the publisher at the moment). And this isn't a sales pitch....I will give you a copy, if and when. As a matter of fact, I want to "give" everyone a copy...that is one of the areas of disagreement. And I am not promoting because there is nothing to promote, now or in the near future. Project is on indefinite hold.

Why do none of the AP's quote the other guy where it's important? And never provide links?

OneHit, I have no idea what you are saying or attempting to say here.

Alan, I am not going to discuss the lip of the table again. That is a non issue. I am not 3 feet tall, which is the only instance that would be an issue. And I am not going to repeatedly go over all these other things again and again. YES, if the are a lot of people standing around /and or playing the other table, tracking a second table probably isn't an option at that time. I said that at the very start. You have "proved" something I acknowledged at the very start. Most of my play does not take place at crowded conditions or times. I don't care for weekends or nights (although I am forced to play some just to spread my play around) and I don't care for the strip BECAUSE it is crowded and that is not just about tracking two tables. Crowded conditions are undesirable for a number of reasons, including fewer rounds played per hour.

The only time I seek out crowded conditions is a big fight night or other big event or holiday time. And that is an entirely different objective, playing in the shadows of other bigger bettors, allows me to play higher stakes than I normally would.

And finally, both Alan and OneHit inquiring about the specifics, when do you look?....all that stuff, I have been over and over. It takes a fraction of a second to pick up the count at the second table....or even the initial table for that matter. Experienced counters are not watching every card come out, wherever they are counting, their own table, a second table, back counting. Experienced counters use a cancelation method, cancelling out cards. It takes a glance....literally a fraction of a second. And before Alan goes off on some rampage about super powers, this cancelation method at a glance is not even something you learn or practice. It is something your mind just does after a while. That is what experience is.

I am not going to keep rehashing the same arguments again and again and again. Believe whatever the fuck you want! BUT YOU ARE SIMPLY WRONG! This is not MY technique, not something unique or all that unusual. MANY experienced counters use this technique and have for decades.

[OneHitWonder]

Well I haven't told the story of my dog dying when I was 12 years old here either. Am I suppose to relate every incident that occurred throughout my life or card counting career, at every site I am on?

You made one post about this at an other site. But you left out the most important part of it? You find that amusing as when your dog died? The reason people shouldn't own pets.

Why do none of the AP's quote the other guy where it's important? And never provide links?

Hey, don't put words into my mouth. And, a link to back up something you say would be helpful. I know, there aren't any.

It takes a fraction of a second to pick up the count at the second table....or even the initial table for that matter. Experienced counters are not watching every card come out, wherever they are counting, their own table, a second table, back counting. Experienced counters use a cancelation method, cancelling out cards. It takes a glance....literally a fraction of a second.

Even were it so easy, this isn't what we ask. I want to know the order of events within the deal that you make your many, many glances. Anyone can say, I looked, and it took half a second. And then, how do you move to an other table? If there is only one spot there, eg, but none were you are, do you move? Is it easier to count other tables when all of them are full tables? Stuff like this.

I am not going to keep rehashing the same arguments again and again and again. Believe whatever the fuck you want! BUT YOU ARE SIMPLY WRONG! This is not MY technique, not something unique or all that unusual. MANY experienced counters use this technique and have for decades.

Lol. You haven't said anything yet but a bunch of baloney, and poor-old-me stuff.

[coach belly]

They are Haters.

My posts are primarily questions...are my questions hateful?

You, on the other hand, have written about wishing that you could shoot someone...isn't that hateful?

Hypocrites should be discredited, and so I quote their own words to expose their hypocrisy.

That's not hateful, and it has nothing to do with AP or Rob Singer, or whatever delusions that your psychosis has caused.

You call Alan a liar. I don't think that he is a liar, I don't know him to be a liar.

But I know that you are a liar, because you posted lies about me.

I know that you are a hypocrite based on what you have posted on this forum, and you continue to discredit
yourself with your disgraceful (and hateful) posts.

...like this...

parading up and down Pacific Ave in Atlantic City in your high heels and wig, 'conveniently forgetting' to mention to the "Johns" that you have a dick (small as it may be).

What a classy guy and such an asset to this forum.