Tracking multiple BJ tables - Richard Munchkin

[mickeycrimm]

Tell us about obstructions too. When you are viewing the cards at a second table are you sitting at the firat table or standing? How many players at your table and the second. How about a photo?

More questions, Redietz. What color shirt does the pit boss have on? Is the dealer male or female? If female do you think she used creme rinse? If male do you think he is wearing a toupe? Do you think the guy sitting a first base is transgender? Photos please.

[kewlJ]

Who attacked Munchkin?

OneHitWonder and JSTAT. Also a former a-hole member attacked Richard in an email to me and I hope not, but quite possibly, sent the same attack on directly to Munchkin.

To your credit, coach belly, I don't recall YOU attacking or challenging Munchkin's credibility. So, can I ask you: Do you accept Munchkin as an expert opinion?

You caught me off-guard with this reponse, I had assumed you had me blocked.

But OK...before I answer your question, you wrote above that Alan attacked Munchkin's credibility.

I realize that this is one of my "gotcha" moments, but isn't that a dishonest and deceitful attack on Alan?

Well, I will say I don't recall Alan attacking Richards credibility either, without going back and checking. BUT, Munchkins credibility was questioned by other anti-APers, as a result of Alan continuing with this attempt to discredit me.

I noticed you didn't answer my question.

For what it is worth, seeing some of Alan's quotes in other members posts (redietz) today, made me want to go back and post some of Alan's quote and in order to quote his posts, I had to unblock him, so I unblocked you at the same time, hoping with one of the instigators gone, I would again see if respectful dialogue and discussion was possible with you (and Alan). Are you suggesting that was a mistake?

[kewlJ]

Redietz also ask if entering mid shoe are you limited to betting at the table minimum which is something that was mentioned. If so, what's the point of moving tables in the first place?

Alan, you are really getting deranged over this. Do you really think a professional blackjack player would waste his time counting down a table knowing he won't be able to take advantage of it? You really are clutching at straws here.

In regards to NMSE, there is usually a little placecard in the corner of the stable stating No Mid Shoe Entry. Same with the betting minimum until the shuffle. If you don't see a card, mid shoe entry is usually allowed. Most places in Vegas allow mid-shoe entry, but not all.

I say "usually allowed", because I have witnessed situations were someone (not me) sat down mid shoe and threw out a large bet and was told NMSE, even though there was no sign. That is a case of a player finding out his actions were outside the casino's comfort level at that time. If he had sat down and wagered $25 or $50 or even a hundred or two, they wouldn't have pulled that "invisible" NMSE rule on him.

[mickeycrimm]

I realize that this is one of my "gotcha" moments, but isn't that a dishonest and deceitful attack on Alan?

No, Alan has been making a dishonest and deceitful attack on KJ for a simple statement he made about counting two tables. Every objective person here gets the benefit of redietz work. But that does not include Alan. He started with the opinion that it isnt possible and will never publicly change his mind.

[coach belly]

I unblocked you at the same time, hoping with one of the instigators gone, I would again see if respectful dialogue and discussion was possible with you (and Alan). Are you suggesting that was a mistake?

Respectful dialogue is not possible as long as you continue to respond like this...

I mean seriously, WTF, Alan. I have asked this before and I am asking again...Are you retarded? I don't mean that as an insult. I mean that as....is there something mentally wrong with you?

There's just no call for this tone...it's patronizing and even more insulting to claim that you don't mean it as an insult.

I'm skeptical that a professional player can spread and play unrated at the same joints for years, count a second table while playing another, jump from table to table when the count dictates, and not get made by the pit. But, I'm in AC where almost all of the green action and above is NMSE, so what you describe is not possible in my experience...certainly not possible to do that and win year after year without getting made.

But that's just my experience, if there are are claims that it can be done in LV then I'd like to see it done, and I'll make myself available to see it done.

But we both (and Axel) know that nobody will demonstrate that under live conditions, so we have a standoff.

I remain skeptical, as I suppose Alan is, but that doesn't mean we're anti-AP, haters, dishonest or retarded.

I noticed you didn't answer my question.

As far as Munchkin goes, I don't know that much about him, and wouldn't attack his credibility as an expert, except to say that I'm skeptical of his claims in this regard.

I will say that I loved that brilliant "Dealer Tells" cartoon of his, had it bookmarked and watched it often...but it looks like he took it down from his website.

[coach belly]

I realize that this is one of my "gotcha" moments, but isn't that a dishonest and deceitful attack on Alan?

No, Alan has been making a dishonest and deceitful attack on KJ for a simple statement he made about counting two tables. Every objective person here gets the benefit of redietz work. But that does not include Alan. He started with the opinion that it isnt possible and will never publicly change his mind.

I disagree that Alan has been dishonest and deceitful. That's your opinion, and not a fact.

In my opinion, Alan has been attacked by KJ...I'm sure that the archives will show that to be true.

I also disagree that Alan doubts redietz...he has written many times that he does not doubt redietz.

I can't comment on what benefit anyone here has gotten from redietz work...I'm not sure what you mean by that.

[Dankyone]

Quick update: I am measuring the distances of various tables and eyeballing the visual requirements. It looks to me like taking photos with a phone can be massaged in either direction. A phone view really isn't an eyeball view. My eyesight is not 20/20, so if I can do a particular distance, pretty much anybody can except Mr. Magoo. I'll provide details next week, but my preliminary observation is that in terms of visual acuity, it can pretty clearly be done at both Palace Station and the Orleans. The Boyd properties, in general, seem to have somewhat shorter distances from a mid-table seat to the center of the next table over.

Dealers and pit bosses look at me somewhat strangely, but nobody's asked or approached regarding my measuring the distances. I'll be checking strip properties in the next day or two.

Check out the main pit at Caesars Palace, Alan’s favorite. The blackjack tables are so uncomfortably close together that anyone who can see the cards at his own table can easily see them at adjacent tables.

[kewlJ]

But, I'm in AC where almost all of the green action and above is NMSE, so what you describe is not possible in my experience...certainly not possible to do that and win year after year without getting made.

You would be wrong about not "possible to do that year after year without getting made". Although in a sense, "getting made" is less the issue. What I do is only part about trying to hide or disguise what I do. And it's the smaller part. The bigger part is identifying and playing levels that are tolerated, or fall in the 'comfort level' of the casino and pit personnel, for that casino and time/day. That takes a little trial and error to get it right.

But, I don't want to get into that. I want to talk about something else you said...the NMSE in AC. You are correct that AC has more NMSE than other areas of the country, including Vegas, as well as including your neighboring state to the west, Pa.

I presume you have read enough of my posts to know that I started my career in AC, first 5 1/2 years. When I relocated to Vegas there were two things that I was looking forward to that I thought would be a big advantage to me. One was spreading to two hands which was not very often possible in AC because of crowded conditions. The second was back counting and "wonging" into positive counts (mid shoe entry), which was not allowed in AC but was allowed in Vegas.

Unfortunately, neither worked out as I though. Spreading to two hands, while it was something you could do because conditions where less crowded in Vegas, simply is not tolerated in Vegas nearly as much as other parts of the country. Pit will often come over and start flipping through the discard tray, as soon as you spread to two hands, looking at the cards already played. Not exactly very subtle! Only takes a couple times to get the message.

Now, the entering mid-shoe and wonging didn't work out, because, while it is allowed, the uncrowded conditions, makes it very obvious when you are standing around back counting. WAY TOO obvious. But, what I found did work, especially at the really uncrowded casinos away from the strip (the local type places) is tracking a second table and jumping to a better count opportunity. And it is not as obvious as you and Alan seem to think.

Edit: Info removed

None of this is by accident. When I moved to Vegas, a player on another site, bigplayer, (a former member of xxxxx xxxxxxx teams), who I learned so much from, said, and this is one of my favorite bigplayer quotes "Vegas is about quantity, not quality", meaning there are 40-50 playable games within a few miles (my rotation is usually just about 30 (give or take). There is no other place in the world that has that situation. So I tailored my game to that "Quantity" that is the benefit of Las Vegas. And that means short sessions and that means tracking a second table in uncrowded situations and jumping to a better opportunity once before exiting.

[AxelWolf]

Alan,

if a pitboss, surveillance, management or some agency like Griffen or OSN said people are known to count 2 tables, would you then change your stance?

Is there ANY authority or expert on this matter that you would believe?

IS THERE ANYONE YOU WOULD BELIEVE?

If most of the BJ experts, AP's, casino personnel and Darksiders acknowledge it's not only posable but viable.

At what point do you realize(short of a demonstration) that your limited knowledge is far outweighed by the majority and concede?

[kewlJ]

Alan,

if a pitboss, surveillance, management or some agency like Griffen or OSN said people are known to count 2 tables, would you then change your stance?

Is there ANY authority or expert on this matter that you would believe?

IS THERE ANYONE YOU WOULD BELIEVE?

If most of the BJ experts, AP's, casino personnel and Darksiders acknowledge it's not only posable but viable.

At what point do you realize(short of a demonstration) that your limited knowledge is far outweighed by the majority and concede?

Don't we already know the answer to this Axel. 18 y.o.'s in a row! Alan will never concede.

[coach belly]

really uncrowded casinos away from the strip (the local type places)

Doesn't just playing green action draw attention at these places?

How about playing green for an extended period of time, waiting for the count to improve?...the pit doesn't check you out?

I only get to out LV for one week a year, but if I go play green chips at at quiet local joint in the middle of the day the pit is all over me...floor people asking me questions, hosts handing me their cards, etc.

If was there regularly they would remember me, especially if I didn't at least take a players card.

[kewlJ]

really uncrowded casinos away from the strip (the local type places)

Doesn't just playing green action draw attention at these places?

How about playing green for an extended period of time, waiting for the count to improve?...the pit doesn't check you out?

I only get to out LV for one week a year, but if I go play green chips at at quiet local joint in the middle of the day the pit is all over me...floor people asking me questions, hosts handing me their cards, etc.

If was there regularly they would remember me, especially if I didn't at least take a players card.

I don't know what kind of places you are talking about. I suppose Longhorn (Boulder highway) or Joker's Wild (Henderson) that have $3 games, and don't even always have black chips in the rack, yeah playing green is problematic, but playing any stations properties, boyd properties, Silver7, downtown properties, the M, South Point, No, green to black action is not unusual.

[Alan Mendelson]

I never attacked Munchkin.

But kewlj you have been constantly attacking me as you mention the 18 yos constantly. This is nothing less than a swipe at my credibility because you know people in this forum and the WOV don't believe.

Frankly I don't care if they don't believe me. Its not going to affect my life or my livelihood.

You kewlj have made a claim and then you backtracked. Sure I suppose in rare conditions where tables are close together and there are no obstructions you can count two tables. Early in this discussion I said there was a card club in Compton where the tables are bunched together and you probably could do this.

But you specifically said casinos on the west side of the Strip and I've been to four of them and they're too far apart and without xray vision you can't see thru the players.

Yes I will agree that you just might be able to count two tables in Compton. But you're not at the Mirage or Caesars or Bellagio or NYNY or Red Rock or Flamingo or Tropicana where I also posted pictures. Why? It's the placement of the tables and your middle seats just don't give the unobstructed view you think you have.

Axel I am sure you're going to find casino reps who will say there are counters who can count two tables. I wonder if they'll also say that they watch for them and they arrange their tables so it isn't easy to do?

I'll answer the question Axel: of course anyone who says counting two tables is possible is also going to have counter measures in place. So bring on your casino experts because I would love to hear them say they leave their tables close together even when they know it goes on.

That will be the biggest laugh.

[kewlJ]

But kewlj you have been constantly attacking me as you mention the 18 yos constantly. This is nothing less than a swipe at my credibility because you know people in this forum and the WOV don't believe.

IF you really saw 18 y.o's in a row, then how is mentioning it an attack or a swipe at your credibility? I am not changing anything you said, nor manipulating anything, nor taking blurry pictures. I am just repeating what you said.

You kewlj have made a claim and then you backtracked.

What have I backtracked on?

Yes I will agree that you just might be able to count two tables in Compton. But you're not at the Mirage or Caesars or Bellagio or NYNY or Red Rock or Flamingo or Tropicana where I also posted pictures. Why? It's the placement of the tables and your middle seats just don't give the unobstructed view you think you have.

Six of these 7 casinos mentioned I have successful tracked a second table in the last 6 months, and that includes the fact that I didn't play any blackjack for 2 months. Two on this list I tracked a second table in the last week.

[kewlJ]

Here's the thing Alan. Two separate claims here, one by you, one by me. So let's take an honest look at them. You claim you saw 18 y.o.'s in a row. At WoV, with hundreds of members, craps player, really smart mathematicians, everyone told you what you were claiming was not possible. You insisted it was and I guess left in a hissy fit over it. And to this day, people bring it up when ever someone says something that is impossible. Michael brought it up in the last few days. What you said is so absurd, that several years later it is still a laughable matter. AND the same thing has played out on this site. No one, thinks you saw what you say you saw and several really smart math guys, Dan included have tried to explain it to you in terms that you could understand, but you refuse to accept reality.

So what we have here is one man insisting he saw something, that no one in the rest of the world believes is possible. So yeah there is a credibility issue. Your claim is not credible.

Now moving on, I mention on this small site with a small limited number of members that I track a second blackjack table, when conditions are right. You challenge that claim. On this site with limited member and even fewer blackjack players, another player (RS_) confirms that he too has done this. On two blackjack sites, Blackjack info, and Blackjack the forum, over half a dozen current players confirm that they have used this technique, including well known author Don Schlesinger, a member of the Blackjack Hall of Fame who stated he has tracked a second table while playing one for 40 years.....let me say that again....40 years! Norm Wattenberger, creator of what I think is the best blackjack software on the market, and by the way, Norm doesn't care for me much, but Norm has confirmed that so many players use this technique that there is a feature on his software products to practice it.

So, we then ask Richard Munchkin, a fulltime AP, with 30 years blackjack experience and he confirms that he has done this for years and he confirms that a number of the very well known professional players that he interviewed for his book, Gambling Wizards, have employed this technique for decades.....decades Alan!

As Axel asked....What more do you want? I wish I had the ability to post at a site like WoV with hundreds of members, and ask if any players, have tracked a second table while playing one, because even though only a fraction play blackjack, there would be a significant number that confirm that they do.

So you have a claim that not a single person in the world believes and every math guy that has heard it disputes.

And I have a claim, that you dispute, but all told a dozen or so blackjack players so far have confirmed they also employ this technique, including several highly regarded expert like Richard Munchkin and Don Schlesinger.

Do you see the difference Alan? My claim has been proven. I guess not to you, because there is nothing you will accept. But to every other reasonably objective person, it has. Your claim, there is not a living soul, that I have heard that thinks you saw what you saw. So don't try to lump them together or connect them in any way. The only similarity is you are on an island in both cases. And that, in itself is part of the problem. You simply refuse to see what everyone else sees. And when that happens multiple times, it is a case of a person not being grounded in reality. They are seeing something different than everyone else. They are in an alternative reality.

Coach belly will say I am being mean and attacking you. I am not. But there is something wrong when one person sees things differently than everyone else.....repeatedly. I know a lot of people sort of give you a pass because you are Alan...quirky, sort of that odd "uncle" figure everyone has. In challenging my claim, you are basically calling me a liar. And now you are calling a dozen or so other players, including RS on this site and experts such as Munchkin and Schlesinger liars. So I am not giving you a pass, because you are quirky Alan Mendelson.

[Alan Mendelson]

There's only one claim here kewlj. You claimed you can count two tables. Then you backtracked to say if conditions were right.

Prove what you claim.

If there are only two players at the second table of what value is your count?

[kewlJ]

There's only one claim here kewlj. You claimed you can count two tables. Then you backtracked to say if conditions were right.

THIS IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE ALAN! I posted the quote just a couple hours ago....READ IT! I said "I TRY to count a second table when I can".

A few hours later on AUGUST 8, when people where asking questions, I qualified what that meant.....WHEN CONDITIONS ALLOWED. That is not backtracking, and for you to suggest it is, is just disingenuous. It's dishonest.

If there are only two players at the second table of what value is your count?

What this says to me, is something Axel alluded to earlier....you just have no idea what you are talking about concerning this topic.

IF there are only two players at the second table, it means I likely can track that second table (conditions are ripe). And what that means is my EV (expected value) for my time in this casinos just went up 50%. And this will blow your mind even more. My EV just went up 50%, whether I end up jumping to that second table or not.

[MisterV]

He's proven it.

Now, prove you saw the mythical eighteen yo's.

Nice post there, KJ: sums it all up rather nicely.

[Alan Mendelson]

I can't prove the 18 yos. When I returned to Caesars they said the tape was no longer available.

Kewlj admits he backtracked eight hours later.

Now kewlj explain how you count two tables when the dealers are dealing independent games? Oh you don't have to.... that's when conditions are not "ripe."

Take your own photos.

[kewlJ]

Now kewlj explain how you count two tables when the dealers are dealing independent games? Oh you don't have to.... that's when conditions are not "ripe."

What on earth are you talking about? Does anybody have an Alan to English dictionary?