Tracking multiple BJ tables - Richard Munchkin

[redietz]

First of all I am not a player in anyone's class here including Rob or kewlj or even AxelWolf. I never played the stakes these guys play.

Now when it comes to seeing the cards on a second table: of course you'll be able to differentiate paint from pips. You can probably do that from thirty feet away even with cataracts.

But the issue of counting two tables is not as simple as line of sight. Here are the obstacles:

1. Dealers dealing so there is time to see both tables.
2. Other players obstructing the view.
3. Angle of the table permitting or blocking the view.
4. The lip of the table which can obstruct the view.
5. Your height and the angle of view you have.
6. Not being obvious.

My fuzzy, out of focus photos which were not deliberately taken that way, showed the problems with points 3, 4 and 5.

Redietz said he stood at a table for his experiment. Next time take a seat then tell us how many cards you miss.

That is a misrepresentation, and that's being kind. I stood, but I crouched to the eye level of a seated person. I didn't take a seat because sitting at a closed table might get me tossed out.

[mickeycrimm]

Incorrect. This projection thing is wicked right. YOU tried it at one. LOL.

I've been checking this every trip since the debate, and I tried it at three places the initial trip. In fact, my carry-on got searched because of a metal tape measure I take with me, and that was my second or third excursion.

You haven't even looked in Las Vegas, have you? You are proclaiming that I'm lying about Las Vegas tables, and kewlJ is lying about Las Vegas tables...and YOU HAVEN'T EVEN CHECKED ANY LAS VEGAS TABLES!

Do you see how ridiculous that is? You are trying to debunk a Las Vegas blackjack player by checking one table in Reno. What the hell? That doesn't even make sense. And you call me, who has been toting a tape measure with me the entire time, and actually posted the measurements here, a liar, when you haven't even been to Las Vegas!

So what were the distances at your Peppermill table? Did you measure them? Were they representative of all tables in the area? Go ahead, post the inches between tables here, as I did. Tick tock.

Why is it you think sitting at one table in Reno debunks kewlJ, who is in Las Vegas? What kind of engineer would draw that conclusion?


Tell you what -- let's have a blackjack table measuring excursion while I'm in LV in a couple of weeks. You and me. We'll walk the strip and measure some tables, and see if we can identify pips from paint. That should settle it, eh? Invite Mr. Mendelson. He can tote the tape measure, and then we can look up a couple of optometrists.

Robocchio and Alan are to chickenshit to accept your offer.

[redietz]

Now I find it really strange that I didn't have a dog in the hunt, but I actually have done the checking and measuring in Las Vegas, and others have not. Mr. Mendelson, who originally tried to debunk the concept, has not done any research since then, has not measured distances, and has not consulted optometrists with the results. Or perhaps he has, and simply hasn't said, "Yeah, you can see the cards if nobody is there. I was wrong about that. But the full tables make it impossible."

I don't know what it or is not possible in terms of effectively counting at live tables. I do not even play blackjack. But I wanted to know if it was possible to see cards at other tables from the required distances, and it is. Not from every table, but from most. And with some distances, the farthest seat becomes a "pips versus paint" identification, not a precise card identification. I thought there would be a clear correlation between the presumed poshness of a casino/hotel and the distances between tables. In other words, I thought the dives would have the shortest distances between tables, but that was not as consistent as one would think.


There is probably a reason I was the only person to post the distances in inches. Other people have agendas on this topic. I don't. In fact, I'll have my handy dandy tape measure with me in two weeks. I will post more results. My eyes are bad. If I can identify cards at other tables, anybody can. Since I'll be there during post-rodeo, when it's really dead, I should have optimal opportunities to measure and eyeball cards at other tables.

[Alan Mendelson]

First of all I am not a player in anyone's class here including Rob or kewlj or even AxelWolf. I never played the stakes these guys play.

Now when it comes to seeing the cards on a second table: of course you'll be able to differentiate paint from pips. You can probably do that from thirty feet away even with cataracts.

But the issue of counting two tables is not as simple as line of sight. Here are the obstacles:

1. Dealers dealing so there is time to see both tables.
2. Other players obstructing the view.
3. Angle of the table permitting or blocking the view.
4. The lip of the table which can obstruct the view.
5. Your height and the angle of view you have.
6. Not being obvious.

My fuzzy, out of focus photos which were not deliberately taken that way, showed the problems with points 3, 4 and 5.

Redietz said he stood at a table for his experiment. Next time take a seat then tell us how many cards you miss.

That is a misrepresentation, and that's being kind. I stood, but I crouched to the eye level of a seated person. I didn't take a seat because sitting at a closed table might get me tossed out.

Good. So how many hands did you crouch through while simulating that you were also playing at your own table, and how many cards did you see/miss?

There is no question you can see cards and count cards at two tables with an unobstructed view and if the dealers are dealing at the opportune times.

Just do it... or try it... under real conditions. I'll meet anyone under real conditions to track their success counting two tables.

[redietz]

First of all I am not a player in anyone's class here including Rob or kewlj or even AxelWolf. I never played the stakes these guys play.

Now when it comes to seeing the cards on a second table: of course you'll be able to differentiate paint from pips. You can probably do that from thirty feet away even with cataracts.

But the issue of counting two tables is not as simple as line of sight. Here are the obstacles:

1. Dealers dealing so there is time to see both tables.
2. Other players obstructing the view.
3. Angle of the table permitting or blocking the view.
4. The lip of the table which can obstruct the view.
5. Your height and the angle of view you have.
6. Not being obvious.

My fuzzy, out of focus photos which were not deliberately taken that way, showed the problems with points 3, 4 and 5.

Redietz said he stood at a table for his experiment. Next time take a seat then tell us how many cards you miss.

That is a misrepresentation, and that's being kind. I stood, but I crouched to the eye level of a seated person. I didn't take a seat because sitting at a closed table might get me tossed out.

Good. So how many hands did you crouch through while simulating that you were also playing at your own table, and how many cards did you see/miss?

There is no question you can see cards and count cards at two tables with an unobstructed view and if the dealers are dealing at the opportune times.

Just do it... or try it... under real conditions. I'll meet anyone under real conditions to track their success counting two tables.

So you agree that Rob is completely wrong to say one cannot identify cards on the adjacent tables? And that he is completely wrong to say that I could not identify cards on adjacent tables?

[kewlJ]

I didn't really create this thread to rehash the whole tracking two tables or even rehash the unseen cards opinions of those on this forum.

To his credit, Alan admits that he doesn't play blackjack and it is obvious doesn't know about these topics. Doesn't stop him from stating his opinion though, just as if he did have some expertise in this area.

Now Singer...he tries to portray himself as an expert in areas such as this that his comments make it crystal clear he too....has no clue. I mean comments about why AP's don't use their real names? Really? I think anyone, with even half a brain recognizes why legitimate AP's don't use their real names. The very industry that we play against, wants to stop us. AND an entire new industry, consisting of database networks has sprung up to help them do so. Blackjack AP's have been dealing with this for years, but recently the casino industry's paranoia has spread to machine players as well. Further comments by Singer regarding blackjack AP play and how it is no longer possible, more than prove his ignorance on the subject matter. BUT, just like Alan, it doesn't stop him from stating his obviously wrong conclusions.

Singer is just not knowledgeable about most topic that he talks about. That is all there is to it. He is an internet troll. Nothing more nothing less. Y'all know my quote: "it doesn't take that much to figure out who knows what they are talking about and who is just talking". Singer continues to make that an easy call.

The bottom line is that two experts, real experts on the subject matter have weighed in on the unseen card topic and several weighted in on tracking multiple tables. These are known blackjack expert players. And that is not good enough for these clowns that will stop at nothing to discredit. NOTHING will ever be good enough for these anti-AP people who admit and prove their ignorance on the subject matter.

[Alan Mendelson]

Redietz of course you can identify cards on adjacent tables. Just do it under normal play with dealers dealing and players in seats.

Kewlj stop with your anti AP hysteria. We got it.

And redietz even kewlj has posted here that he doesn't see all the cards at the second table which was the Genesis for this entire discussion about what impact that has.

I accept what Kewlj said. Not seeing all the cards has some negative impact. Those aren't his words, they're mine. I think that ends the discussion. No need to tape measure redietz or mickeycrimm because this was never about vision; it was about actual play conditions.

Are we done now? Or does Boz want one more insult added?

[Moses]

This thread has motivated me. I'm going to try it. I don't know why I never thought of it before now. I have a couple of buddies at various ages and eye sights. I was at Pmill tonight and those tables are very close together.

[Alan Mendelson]

Wise up Alan. The only reason that tewl started this thread was to draw you into the discussion, and you tripped over yourself to get into when you saw a potential “gotcha” moment opportunity.

There was no gotcha. Kewlj agreed with what I've been asking all along. He admits he can't see every card and concedes that lowers his potential.

The only thing left to argue is the argument and that's what you're doing. I'm just waiting to see what MaxPen and Boz and Keystone will come up with and how Dan will ignore their trolling unlike what he did to Blackhole.

[Moses]

Alan, Alan, Alan. Do you realize how many posts have been made regarding this matter? The only way anyone will know is to go see for themselves. I'm going to try. But I stood at one empty table and could not read the bold black letters on the next table tonight. But I will try and I will have others try, just so I can once and for all get this topic out of my head. EVERYONE - EVERYWHERE PLEASE GO TRY IT. GEEZOUS!

Then we take a poll on the who could and who couldn't. Simple no?

[Alan Mendelson]

I've been saying that all along Moses. Only redietz said he tried but he admits he crouched behind a table to simulate sitting at a table.

Be sure you sit in the MIDDLE seat so you don't have to twist your head like Linda Blair in The Exorcist.

[Moses]

I'm not actually going to play and try it. I will go to the places where I've already been 86ed and stand between two tables, a couple steps back so my eyes can shift side to side - table to table - without my head turning. I had great peripheral vision in basketball. It sounds pretty ridiculous to me, but I'll do it. I'll send my buddies into my honey pots as it's bound to look suspicious. Can you imagine all the work I've done on single deck straight up blackjack only to get banned for fucking around shoes with a table full of ploppies? LOL Shrewd!

[Alan Mendelson]

Unfortunately your experiment doesn't match kewlj's criteria. He sits in the middle seat so as to minimize the head turn. Standing between two tables is not even close.

Let us know how many players you have to see through with xray vision and be sure the dealers are alternating deals so you don't hold up your game while you spy on the adjoining table. After all, you don't want to be obvious that you're counting two tables. LOL

[mickeycrimm]

Unfortunately your experiment doesn't match kewlj's criteria. He sits in the middle seat so as to minimize the head turn. Standing between two tables is not even close.

Let us know how many players you have to see through with xray vision and be sure the dealers are alternating deals so you don't hold up your game while you spy on the adjoining table. After all, you don't want to be obvious that you're counting two tables. LOL

It's been gone over again and again and yet you are still stuck on stupid. How many times has KJ said he only does it when conditions permit? You're clutching at straws.

[Alan Mendelson]

Mickeycrimm you're just trying to stir up trouble. Yes, yes, yes. When conditions permit. But even then you have to have the dealers alternate and you can't be caught looking. Please Mickey, go back to your keno games.

[Moses]

Unfortunately your experiment doesn't match kewlj's criteria. He sits in the middle seat so as to minimize the head turn. Standing between two tables is not even close.

Let us know how many players you have to see through with xray vision and be sure the dealers are alternating deals so you don't hold up your game while you spy on the adjoining table. After all, you don't want to be obvious that you're counting two tables. LOL

Okay, I will stand behind one table and look to the other table. My head will turn. But I'm not putting myself at risk by sitting/playing at one table in the middle and trying to see the other.

[Moses]

It's been gone over again and again and yet you are still stuck on stupid. How many times has KJ said he only does it when conditions permit? You're clutching at straws.

Mick. Let me tell you a quick story. I was playing blackjack last night. About 10 minutes into the new shift the dealer was replaced. I was suspicious because that casino works on 40 minute rotations. My style is get in, get paid, get out. Unfortunately, it's not always that easy. So my play is so controlled and boring it would put anyone to sleep.

But I think this guy beat me at my own game. He spoke broken English and wouldn't shut up. But he wouldn't deal until he finished his damn, boring assed, God awful story...and then go right into the next one.

For instance, I had 6,2 vs 10. Obviously, I swipe "twice" to get a 10 because he is more interested in yakking than dealing. About 45 seconds to a minute later he turned his card over to get 20. The helluva it is, he was giving me everything I wanted in terms of pen etc. But the game was in slow motion. Finally, after 6 decks took nearly 30 minutes to play, I was up a quarter and thought, to hell with this, I don't care if I make $500, I can't listen any longer. The first time in my career I've been bored away from a table.

So, maybe KJ can do it. Maybe he can't. Not my Circus. Not my Monkey. Even if I can/could do it? This risk and reward probably is not worth the effort for me.

BTW, next time I go up against this dealer? I play with one other person. Let the other person go off his nut and complain to the pit boss. I will play just as slow as the dealer. Pit jumps his ass. I look like the good guy. Like I say "game of people played with cards."

[Alan Mendelson]

Unfortunately your experiment doesn't match kewlj's criteria. He sits in the middle seat so as to minimize the head turn. Standing between two tables is not even close.

Let us know how many players you have to see through with xray vision and be sure the dealers are alternating deals so you don't hold up your game while you spy on the adjoining table. After all, you don't want to be obvious that you're counting two tables. LOL

Okay, I will stand behind one table and look to the other table. My head will turn. But I'm not putting myself at risk by sitting/playing at one table in the middle and trying to see the other.

Standing or crouching BEHIND the table doesn't accurately represent what kewlj does. Try to find an empty table next to a table in use. Sit at the center seat if only for a couple of hands. Report back.

[blackhole]

Please listen to the words carefully ... they get better as the song goes on. Picture Kewlj in a little skirt with a pointed hat and spinning in circles singing along waving a magic wand.

I suspect I'll get banned from this thread if Dan doesn't agree with my comedy.

[mickeycrimm]

Mickeycrimm you're just trying to stir up trouble. Yes, yes, yes. When conditions permit. But even then you have to have the dealers alternate and you can't be caught looking. Please Mickey, go back to your keno games.

I look all around all the time. Never had a problem with that. What's with your "you can't look around" bullshit? Please, Alan, go back to your craps habit.